McCain Rejects Idea That U.S. Can’t Afford No-Fly Zone in Libya (McCain wants to intervene in Libya)

Fox ^ | 2011-03-02

[rabscuttle385]

(snip)

"We are spending over $500 billion dollars, not counting Iraq and Afghanistan, on our nation's defense. Don't tell me we can't do a no fly zone over Tripoli," the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services said at the Atlantic Council Tuesday evening.

"I love the military, I love it, it's been my life, but they always seem to find reasons why you can't do something rather than why you can," Sen. McCain said.

(snip)

On Libyan leader Qaddafi, McCain said, "This guy's days are numbered. The question is -- is can we shorten those number of days to save lives, to save people's lives because it's clear he's going to kill whoever he thinks he can in order to stay in power."

(snip)

[Old Teufel Hunden]

"Damned good question. I have no idea why you feel the need to insult me or any other poster here on FR, but you seem to do it fairly regularly to other posters, too. You seem to thrive on it."

Lets keep in mind that I did not start a conversation with you. You first replied to my post. If you felt this way about me, why reply to me then? I'll answer it for you, because its not true and you didn't know me from Adam before you responded to me. I responded back calling you a sea lawyer which you took offense to because of your dripping sarcasm in your first post to me. And your first post had very little to do with the subject. In fact it sounded like what a Ron Paulbot might say. You have since taken many opportunities to insult me also in this thread. Don't act like an angel...

[Thermalseeker]

Again, lack of basic English comprehension.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe your posts are rambling and incoherent? Perhaps they don't gush with the logic you think they do? Just something to noodle out when you have some time to kill.

Show me in a post where I denigrated that fine institution? I called a person who attended it dumb, not the institution that he came from.

You denigrated the fact that Wesley Clark holds a Master's Degree as if that is something bad. Then, in a veiled attempt to insult, you tried, in obvious desperation, to tie me and and Wesley Clark together simply by virtue of the fact that we both hold Master's Degrees, albeit in different subjects. This is despite the fact that Clark's degrees are from an entirely different institution from where I earned mine (with honors). Not only do you denigrate academic achievement as if it is somehow unworthy of your highly regarded consideration, but by doing do you denigrate the institutions themselves because this is one of the key products of those institution's labors. Therefore, not only did you denigrate West Point, but every institution on the planet that awards Master's Degrees. You simply cannot do one without doing the other. Just some of that "simple logic" you seem so fond of. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but again, you just might want to find out what the person you are insulting has done with their knowledge before you so quickly choose to insult.

Gee, now you're finally starting to get my point

Shazzam!

You listed all of your academic achievments as evidence of how smart you are.

No, I listed my academic achievements after being repeatedly called stupid and ignorant by you.

Yet as you have noted above, being smart or intelligent does not come from academic honors.

Words mean things. Stupid and ignorant do not have the same meaning, nor does smart and intelligent. Perhaps if you would use the correct words to explain exactly what you mean it would be a little easier to understand your "logic".

You see, I never mentioned it previously but I have a college degree also.

Good for you! It's quite an achievement!

It's not germaine to the subject at hand even though you have attempted to belittle my intelligence.

Sir, not once have I tried to belittle you in any way. It would not be germane to the topic of this thread. I have asked questions, quoted facts and stated personal opinions, some of which you disagree with and that is fine because you are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine.

Perhaps because I attained it later in life is the reason that it does not mean as much to me. I feel like I learned more pushing recruits through on Parris Island than in the classroom. I learned more from a CMH winner speaking on Leadership in Combat than any college professor could teach me. My degree merely afforded me the opportunity of good employment upon retirement from the Corps.

Again, I thank you for your service, but I fail to see what this has to do with Libya.

Your degrees, like Wesley Clarks do not impress me and says nothing about your intelligence. Your posts here on the other hand do. They show you to be of low intelligence.

I never once said my degrees equate to intelligence. I merely posted the fact that I hold an MSEE and BSAE from Georgia Tech (with honors) because you called me stupid and ignorant. They don't give Master's Degrees in Electrical Engineering (with honors) or Bachelor's Degrees in Aerospace Engineering (with honors) away because someone is stupid. It is possible to be ignorant and hold a higher degree though, and to that I plead guilty. I don't begin to claim that I know everything. Far from it. I learn something new every day. I wish I could say the same for others. Quite a bit of study and dedication is required to earn high levels of academic achievement, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, before you insult me further perhaps you should know that it is barely possible that I helped design a system that keeps Marines, like those you guided at Paris Island, alive when they face the confusion of combat.

You better go back and re-read your posts there sea lawyer. You've insulted me many times on here. I'm just not whining about it. You better buck up and put your big boy pads on if you're going come on here on free republic and drip with sarcasm in your posts to me or others.

Considering that I've been around Free Republic about three times longer than you I'll certainly take that suggestion under close advisement and govern myself accordingly, sir! Thank you for the advice! I'll be 'a workin' on that "buckin' up"! Sir, yes Sir!

[Thermalseeker]

And your first post had very little to do with the subject.

My first post had everything to do with the subject of taking action in Libya. There is no constitutional basis for it. Perhaps you like circumventing the Constitution, but I do not.

In fact it sounded like what a Ron Paulbot might say. As a Marine didn't you swear an oath to uphold the Constitution and defend it from all enemies, foreign and domestic and to bear true faith an allegiance to the same?

I'm from Tennessee, not Texas, but if you think pointing out that there is no Constitutional basis for the United States Military taking action in Libya makes me a "Paulbot", again, you are entitled to your opinion, however flawed. Actually, I prefer Herman Cain, but then again you've not taken any time to begin to get to know me. Thus, you continue to make broad insults and assumptions based on absolutely nothing.

You have since taken many opportunities to insult me also in this thread. Don't act like an angel...

Again, sir, I have made no conscious attempt to insult you on this thread whatsoever. You might very well have found some of my comments insulting because I've pointed out your failures to answer direct questions, even when cash money was offered. I've also pointed out that you've backed yourself into a corner with your "logic" and your assumptions about me. I can see how that might be construed as insulting from your end. If you don't want me pointing out the flaws in your "logic" why do you continue? I really don't know why you want to continue to talk about me when the thread is about Libya. As far as being an angel, as a matter of fact the root word for angel is derived from ancient Sumerian and it means "messenger". That's all I've done is deliver a message. We have no Constitutional basis for getting involved in a civil war in Libya. You just don't like it.

Still workin' on "buckin' up" here, boss!

[Old Teufel Hunden]

"I never once said my degrees equate to intelligence. I merely posted the fact that I hold an MSEE and BSAE from Georgia Tech (with honors) because you called me stupid and ignorant."

Again, more distortions of the truth, which BTW you are getting pretty good at! Good job!!! Here is the post where you went down the line of "I'm smarter than you, here's my degrees". It happened in 113. You were responding to a statement where I said:

"You're just not smart enough to understand my counter."

Nowhere did I use the term ignorant. Now, the term smart is another definition for intelligence. Then you responded by saying:

"No, I simply do not accept your premise or your lies. BTW, I hold an MSEE and a BSAE from Georgia Tech (with honors) and I've been a MENSA member since I was 15. I'll compare IQ with you anytime, anywhere....."

Sounds to me like you are defending my charges that you're not that smart by saying you're smart and here's my degrees to prove it. Sounds like you're saying your degrees equate to intelligence.

" Therefore, not only did you denigrate West Point, but every institution on the planet that awards Master's Degrees"

What your doing is called building a strawman argument. Putting forth an argument I never made (i.e. that I'm putting down West Point or any other institution of higher learning) and attacking it. For the last time, my point was that degrees don't impress me. I've met people with Doctorate degrees that were idiots and I've met people who didn't graduate highschool who were very wise and visa versa.

Most people do this when they are losing the argument, which you did long ago. Then as a bonus you throw out there that you've been on Freerepublic three times longer than me. Well congratulations there mister. I'll get you a cookie for it. And what exactly does that prove? You're still not that smart and can't understand arguments. Actually, I really think you choose not to understand the points I'm making because you know you're wrong and I'm right but that's just my opinion.

One last thing, if you are so much better and smarter than me (as you claim by your posts), why do you deign to speak to a lowly servant such as I?

[Old Teufel Hunden]

"Again, sir, I have made no conscious attempt to insult you on this thread whatsoever."

You've been insulting of me from the start. Why not go back and re-read the sarcasm from your first post. You've been dishonest about what you wrote and then just went on posting as if you never said them. Even when I called you on it. You've built straw man arguments and attacked me on those. You live in a delusional world, but then again I would expect no less from a creature such as yourself. Now you even take credit for training my former recruits. Great job, pat on the back. I don't recall seeing you there but maybe that's just my memory. Maybe you wrote the drill and ceremonies manual also???

[logician2u]

The anti-McCaine

[Thermalseeker]

Yet more of your flawed opinions about me randomly strung together as incoherent and rambling as ever, and presented as if they are fact. I have to admit it is amusing how you cite your own opinion as if it is fact, but it does nothing to prove your claims. As we apparently both agree, this isn't about you and me, yet you continue to belabor this point and make out as if I am the devil incarnate and as if I have labored intensely to deceive you. You know that is not true. You know you only keep returning the discussion to me because you have nothing within the law with which to base your opinions about US involvement in a civil war in Libya. You do this as if it were somehow relevant to talk about me, despite the fact that the thread is about the establishment of a "no-fly" zone over Libya. You have yet to answer the basic question I posed long ago in my original post. For review: Please cite the specific verbiage in the Constitution that allows the US military to intervene in a civil war in a sovereign country? Each time I call you on this you change the subject back to me with more of your made up blather, always laced with personal attacks on me or about my character that you know absolutely nothing about. I've told you I do not accept your premise that I have insulted you, because I have not. I have told you again and again that I have, in no way, deliberately deceived you. You cannot cite anything beyond your opinion that supports either claim.

Are you ever going to comment on precisely what justifies entry by US forces into the Libyan civil war? You clearly think there is some justification for the USA to take action in Libya and I've repeatedly asked you to cite a basis for this belief other than your opinion. You started off by claiming the preamble to the Constitution was law. Clearly, I have demonstrated beyond a shadow of doubt by giving you specific case history and a direct quote from that decision showing that the preamble does not justify, in any way, the use of force in this incidence, or anything else for that matter. The preamble is not law. The case I cited is so direct and to the point you must not have even bothered to read it. Please try to stay on topic and quit all the random, baseless personal attacks. I really don't care what you think of me. I ignore most of your comments because they are simply your rambling opinion and have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Using your own opinion as if it is fact might seem gratifying when you do it, but with all due respect the truth is your opinion really doesn't mean much unless you can back it up with facts. Answer the question I posed, please. If you can't, say so.

BTW, still workin' on "buckin' up", boss!

[Old Teufel Hunden]

I couldn’t even read most of your incoherent ramblings in that last post. My eyes started hurting. Stay off the sauce. You’re the one that has made this about you. You are the one spouting your degrees and your engineering and pilots license. Not me. I’ve answered your questions and tried to have a debate with you. You have lost the argument and gone off on rabbit trails.

Just like a sea lawyer. When found out, he has nothing left but to attack and insult me. Thanks for playing big boy...

[Thermalseeker]

You are the one spouting your degrees and your engineering and pilots license.Just like a sea lawyer. When found out, he has nothing left but to attack and insult me. Thanks for playing big boy...

The only reason I cited my degrees, pilot's license and one project I've worked on was because you called me stupid.

Please answer the question: What justifies US Military involvement in a civil war in a sovereign country? Clearly, you believe that there is some legal justification for our involvement. Note: There isn't one thing in that question about me.

[Thermalseeker]

Here is my first post, exactly as it was written:

Just curious, but where in the Constitution do you find verbiage that allows the USA to intervene in the domestic affairs of a sovereign country simply because we currently get 2% of our oil from them? Instead of wasting more blood and treasure in a region that has been unstable for more than 2000 years why not focus our efforts on developing ALL of our domestic energy sources like nuclear, thorium, oil, natural gas, etc.? We have all the energy we need right here if the gubmint would quit prohibiting the development of our own domestic resources. We have lots and lots of energy sources right here in the good ‘ole USA. Screw the middle east!

Please answer the question I posed. Thank you.

[Old Teufel Hunden]

"Please answer the question I posed. Thank you."

Answered way back in post 34. If you would bother to read and comprehend....

[Thermalseeker]

Answered way back in post 34.

Okay, so the Preamble to the Constitution is your answer? Wrong. I not only read and comprehended your post, but I posted a link to the exact case and the exact quote from that decision that slams that door shut. You lose. You are the one who failed to read and comprehend, sir. You might think the Preamble gives the POTUS the authority to deploy the military anywhere you'd like, but it doesn't. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that someone with your stated military background would be so quick to lend support to a bunch of murdering thieves hell bent on destroying western society, demonstrated by Pan Am 103, but then again I suppose it takes all kinds, doesn't it?

Still workin' on getting the hang of "buckin' up", boss!

[Old Teufel Hunden]

"You might think the Preamble gives the POTUS the authority to deploy the military anywhere you'd like, but it doesn't."

More reading incomprehension. Where did I ever say this? Here's the question you posted.

"Just curious, but where in the Constitution do you find verbiage that allows the USA to intervene in the domestic affairs of a sovereign country simply because we currently get 2% of our oil from them?"

You never asked if the President has the authority to deploy the military anywhere he likes. In point of fact, he does. That is the duty of the Commander in Chief. However, deploying the military and having them engage a sovereign nation militarily are two different questions. He does not have unilateral authority to impose a no fly zone. And I never stated that he did. I stated that the constitution gives us the authority to intervene militarily because it's in our national interests. There's a process to go through. The President should ask for the authority from Congress and I think the Congress should grant him that authority. Many years ago, the War Powers Act of 1973 was put into place to put limits on the President as far as military actions. This superceded the War Powers Act of 1941. It gives the President authority to put military forces in harms way for 30 days and then he has to go to Congress.

The separated powers of the Executive vs. the Legislative has been fighting over the issue of who gets to put our military in harms way since the beginning of our founding. By the very people who wrote and ratified the Constitution. The Militia Act of 1792 was put into place by the second Congress and who has what powers has been in question ever since.

Suffice to say, the President should go to the Congress to get a resolution in order to enforce a no fly zone. That would satisfy the requirements of the Constitution. Sea Lawyer...

[Old Teufel Hunden]

One other thing there sea lawyer. I always like how you whine and cry about me insulting you and how you never insult me. What is this supposed to mean?

"Still workin' on getting the hang of "buckin' up", boss!"

Looks like your weak attempt at insulting me. I don't care and it doesn't really bother me. I just bring it up to point out your hypocrisy, thats all...

[Thermalseeker]

I don't care and it doesn't really bother me.

It doesn't?

[Old Teufel Hunden]

"It doesn't?"

Uh, not really. You don't see me whining about it like you have continuously in threads while denying that you have ever insulted me. Thus showing your superiority (at least in your eyes). I only show it to you as the most recent example of your insults to me, your sarcasm to me. Thus, your general hypocrisy. So buck up there little camper...

[Thermalseeker]

So buck up there little camper...

Aye-Aye, Captn'.....ROTFLMFAO!

[trisham]

I am opposed to our military becoming engaged in any type of conflict while BHO is occupying the white house.

[Old Teufel Hunden]

I also like how you get slammed time and again on all of your assertions about the actual subject at hand. Out of all the things that I discussed in my last couple of posts to you, what do you pick up on? The one subject that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is your hypocrisy. You have no answer for that either except to mock me.

You make me laugh. You lose the argument there sea lawyer so you switch to another line of discussion. It’s what you have done this whole conversation. Just do me a favor and quit whining about me insulting you and how you have never insulted me this whole time. Give me a break. At least be a little honest with yourself if you can’t be honest with me.

[Thermalseeker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you cite your opinion again ad nauseum. It's all about me. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Reminds me of pecker gnats I've seen circling my dog's hind end. You've posted nothing of substance in quite a while now. BTW, your opinion is just that, your opinion. I'm sure you value it, but it's really not as important to others as you think it is. I'm glad you find your own ignorance amusing. I find it amusing, too, and the "buck up" part is absolutely hysterical! Best laugh I've had in months. Thanks!