Posted on 02/18/2011 5:45:07 PM PST by naturalman1975
Yes, there are those who do choose not to do ‘evil. Equally, as I said, there are moslems who leave Islam (of their own volition/choice), but if found out will be punished, because they are viewed as Apostates in Islam & by their orthodox counterparts.
Exactly, in Islam, itself, the concept of Free Will so far as core Islamic tenets & laws are concerned, does not exist.
No doubt there are “Stupid moslems”. I also wonder how much of so-called ‘stupidity’ can be attributed to the fact that these ‘stupid moslems’ have been conditioned (brainwashed) thru formal/informal education since childhood. By education, I mean at home by their parents, at Islamic schools, thru exposure to certain media, at mosques, as well as by various Islamic clerics.
It is interesting, the other day I was having a conversation on FR about the concept of “good vs evil” & how this concept is interpreted & taught differently in Islam.
In summary, The moslems see ‘good’ as those who adhere to moslem beliefs, Allah, Allah’s ‘final’ prophet as seen by them being Mohammad & the Koran. They see evil as those who doubt & deny the mentioned beliefs, and are told they’ll be punished for it in a physical location (hell) or rewarded for obedience (heaven/paradise) in afterlife.
If you get the time, watch the interview (link in #35). I found it informative, especially from the perspective of the woman was interviewed (Ayaan Hirsi Ali). She is born a moslem, tho is now an ex-moslem.
I don’t buy the patty hearse brainwashed defense evil. A person IS their idealogy. If it’s a murderous cult then they take all the blame as an individual for being a member.
defense of evil..
I reference back to my previous post #13.
The issue isn't that Muslims are sinners. We are all sinners. Shapened in inequity and depraved. We're only changed when the Holy Spirit comes upon us and convicts us and cleanses us (as the Psalmist pleads, "Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me").
Although it is true that God IS Mighty and the Holy Spirit can break even the bonds of those trapped in the Satanic snares of Islam -- the fact is that these poor people are trapped in some awfully powerful chains. Can you imagine being born into a cult where you know, from the moment you can form some thoughts in your mind, that if you leave this cult you will not only be disowned by your family, but your family will also feel obliged to kill you?
At a minimum, on a subconscious level, the person is going to resist leaving. Only the Holy Spirit can save such a person, and I can only admire the courage of those people that leave the death cult of Islam.
Yes, the Muslims are following their 'religion' of doom - but pity the poor sinner trapped in this 'religion' and recognize the author of this 'religion' who is yanking on these people like a puppet master yanks on the strings of his puppet. The author of Islam is none other than Satan - who wants nothing more than the misery and death of mankind.
It isn’t about “defense of evil”. Brainwashing (conditioning) is a fact of life - we see it everywhere & at least to some extent.
As a very small example, take McDonalds’ ads on tv, before “healthy choices” were put on the menu. If you were constantly & only exposed to those ads from childhood, didn’t know any better, were told McDonalds is good for you, were rewarded for eating only McDonalds, and were threatened to be punished or actually were punished for not eating McDonalds, then by the time you reach adulthood you’d be conditioned. Think of Islam & what it teaches the same way, only with greater depth & breadth of brainwashing. Of course, moslems may end up being either repulsed by it or sink deeper into its depth.
Naturally, the ability to make choices, once one reaches adulthood will always exist, regardless of consequences.
Yes, I get that. Islam is the evil root. Muslims are, knowingly or not, the leaves that feed it.
I pity them, and I would like to help them break those bonds, but I don’t know how we do that without having to resort to extreme measures.
Because I have a feeling that all sorts of touchy feely overtures are only going to fall on very deaf ears.
I guess maybe if we had a few hundred years or so to work on it, maybe, and I emphasize, maybe, we might have a chance. But that time has come and gone. We didn’t see it, or we didn’t deal with it when we had the chance. Now we’re where we’re at.
Because its relevant to this subject, let me post something that I copied this off of the Free Republic back in 2001:
The TRUTH about Islam: 7 Ways for a Christian to Respond
Philosophy Editorial Keywords: ISLAM, ALLAH, RELIGION, WAR
Source: Email from Professor, Th M
Published: 10/09/01 Author: J.B. Hixson, Th M, College of Biblical Studies
Posted on 10/09/2001 15:19:08 PDT by Humidston
2 Timothy 3:13
"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived."
These words of Paul are clearly prophetic. Writing just months before he was martyred in Rome, Paul reminds the church that as time progresses, the influence of Satan on the earth will grow worse and worse and deception will intensify. If that was true nearly 2000 years ago, it is even more true today! Never before in human history have we had access to so much information: television, cable, satellite, radio, Internet, newspapers, magazines, etc. Yet the more information we have, the more avenues for deception Satan has. There is a fundamental difference between information and truth. Truth is information; but information is not always true.
To that end, it is important that we filter all that we hear from the media through the lens of Truth-God's Word. This is especially true in light of the current circumstances surrounding the U.S. war on terrorism. As I hear the "experts" speak about the similarities between Islam and Christianity and the supposed common foundation these religions share, I am disheartened, to say the least. I understand the precarious position that our government leaders are in. They have to be careful not to offend Muslim-Americans. And I also understand that not all Muslims strictly follow the teachings of the Koran. That is, not all Muslims are "fundamentalists." But to say that Islam is a religion of peace is simply not accurate. Even a cursory reading of the Koran (Holy Book of Islam) and the Hadith (the sacred sayings of Mohammed) demonstrates that this popular and growing religion is not about peace. It is about war--war with Christianity and Judaism.
While Muslims acknowledge several "holy books," including their own version of the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel, the Koran is clearly the final, authoritative word in Islam. According to Muslim clerics the teachings of the Koran supercede all other books. Furthermore, the sacred sayings of Mohammed outside of the Koran (called the "Hadith") as passed down orally and recorded by Al Bukhari, are also authoritative. The Hadith serves as an expansion or elaboration on the Koran. As proof that Islam, which means "submission" in Arabic, is about war and not peace, consider the following quotes from the Koran and Hadith.
Mohammed was once asked:
What is the best deed for the Muslim next to believing in Allah and His prophet? His answer was: "To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause." (Al Bukhari, Vol. 1:25)
Jihad is an Arabic word that means, "struggle." In Islam, Jihad is the struggle for the cause of Allah using all means available, including violence. This kind of Jihad is often referred to as a "Holy War," and in fact the terms Jihad and holy war have become almost synonymous.
Mohammed once said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah." (Al Bukhari, Vol. 4:196)
And Mohammed also said, "The person who participates in holy battles in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostle, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward or booty (i.e. if he survives) or will be admitted to paradise (i.e. if he is killed)." (Al Bukhari, Vol. 1:35)
In the Koran, Allah orders all Muslims to terrorize non-Muslims.
"Strike terror in the hearts of the enemies of God and your enemies." (Surah 8:60)
"Fight them and God will punish them by your hands." (Surah 9:14)
"I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not ye who slew them; it was God." (Surah 8:13-17)
"And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter..." (Surah 2:191)
"And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah..." (Surah 2:193)
"O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard against evil." (Surah 9:123)
"Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall." (Surah 61:4)
"O ye who believe (i.e. Muslims), take not the Jews or the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you who turns to them for friendship is of them." (Surah 5:51)
Clearly it is not true to say that Islam promotes peace. Does this mean, then, that all Muslims are promoters of violence, hatred and terror? Of course not. Just as not all Christians closely follow the teachings of God's Word (unfortunately!), not all Muslims adhere to the teachings of the Koran (fortunately!). Many Muslims are more liberal or "moderate" and choose not to obey the teachings of Mohammed relative to Jihad. But make no mistake, since its inception in the early seventh century AD, Islam has been about conquering Jews and Christians and turning everyone to Allah. Islam was born in 622 AD when Mohammed fled from Mecca to Medina under persecution because of his radical views. The conflict between Mohammed and the Jews only intensified over the next 10 years until Mohammed's death in 632, and the tension between Israel and Islam has not died down to this day.
How should Christians respond to Muslims and Islam in general? First, love them as Christ loves them. Second, pray that their eyes will be open to the deception that has them captive. Third, be a genuine friend to them. Fourth, if they seem passive or moderate in their adherence to the Koran, engage in a non-threatening dialogue with them by asking thought-provoking questions like, "Can you explain what the Koran means when it tells Muslims to fight against non-Muslims." Because of the actions of Muslim extremists, moderate Muslims are more open to hearing the true Gospel now than at any other time in our history! Fourth, be respectful of their views. Remember that they have just as much a right in America to believe in Allah and Mohammed as we do to believe in God and Christ. Fifth, if they seem vigilant in their adherence to the Koran, be aware that they view you as their enemy. Sixth, recognize that the very real possibility exists that the current conflict between America and the terrorists may ignite (if it hasn't already!) into a full-blown holy war between Islamic fundamentalists and Jews/Christians. When or if this happens, many "moderates" within the Islamic community will quickly become "fundamentalists." Seventh, remember this promise from the Word of God:
"Do not be afraid of sudden terror, nor of trouble from the wicked when it comes; For the LORD will be your confidence..." (Prov. 3:25-26)
J.B. Hixson, Th.M.
College of Biblical Studies
If McDonalds was going around chopping heads off and so on for eating someplace else, then you’d have a point.
The concept you seem not to get is reward & punishment in conditioning - i.e. shaping one’s behaviour/actions - to a desired outcome. Then again, when I mentioned brainwashing (conditioning) in relation to disobeying Islamic ideology in post # 38, you thought (#40) I was talking about “genetics”…
You get a ticket for driving thru a red light or speeding (punishment). In Australia, exceed the speed limit, and if caught, you’ll get a fine & demerit points (punishment) - accumulate 12 demerit points in a period of 3 yrs and you’ll lose your licence (punishment). Drive under the influence, and if caught & over the limit, you can even be imprisoned (punishment).
And, yes, the severity of punishment (chopping heads/hands) in Islam, as you say, is particularly discouraging to those moslems who may choose to leave Islam (research Apostasy laws in Islam), which further proves my related points in previous comments here. Thanks!
Have a good nite.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.