Posted on 01/16/2011 5:41:20 AM PST by Daisyjane69
Ephesus was hardly unique in the time and region for having prominent female religious figures. One of the distinctive features of Christianity, inherited from Judaism, was its exclusively male clergy. The teaching is far more than a single verse indeed. That verse is contextualized in the rest of the Scriptures, all of which testify to this feature of the clergy of both Old and New Israel. A feature that has been ever-present in all orthodox Christianity. A feature that is not only Scripturally unassailable, but which has the benefit of empirical evidence: namely that every time this principle has been violated, the community in question has also abandoned key elements of the Creed.
oOh k?
Care to mention what possible Scriptural, doctrinal or historical grounds there might be for ordaining women?
The earliest possible dating of any uncanonical Gospel is perhaps 150 AD in the case of the Gospel of Thomas, but apart from that text and the Protevangelium of James, no uncanonical text can be realistically dated earlier than 250 AD - their writers were born more than a century after the last possible eyewitness had died.
Also, these texts are often portrayed as having been contenders for inclusion in the Bible with equal standing to the canonical texts until they were eliminated from the running for presumably "political" reasons. In reality, the canon was pretty much closed and set by universal consensus in the Church before these text s were even written. Most of the texts bear the mark of theological fashions that were really popular and trendy among pagans in the 200s but which would have been completely unfamiliar to Jews writing before 100 - which is what these forgeries claim to be.
Actually his name is Warren Jeffs, not Jeffers. His name is not the only thing you are misinformed about. Jeff’s conviction was overturned this summer by the Utah Supreme Court. No surprise here, lots of these polygamists find themselves beneficiaries of “mistakes” by prosecutors. It has happened over and over here.
You appear to be ignorant of the fact that it the female victims rarely are able to escape, since they are threatened in various ways. The boy victims are afraid to turn on their families, fearing their siblings left behind will be punished. Like other cults, they are also taught that outsiders are to be feared.
The entire way of life is a crime; one doesn’t need to have personal, first hand knowledge of it. It REQUIRES criminality in order to continue. Evidently, you don’t get that part. Perhaps you are like me, believing it a victimless crime. I used to believe that when I lived in Ohio, as I never saw it firsthand. I thought they were similar to the Amish, which I am more familiar with.
You would benefit from more research on this topic.
Point of reference on dating:
Did you know that the koran was compiled 200 years (at least) after Mo died? From scraps of scrolls, wall scribblings, and tapistries - all of which the original authors were unknown.
There are actually some courageous German academics working right now to compile a critical history of the standard text of the Koran, tracing the very process of redaction you mentioned. Fascinating, isn’t it?
I appreciate that you are debating this issue here today. We are here in Orderville (United Order) where a lot of the southern Utah polygamy got started. The strange thing is that many of the folks here are sympathetic to this culture in that it existed here long after 1890. In fact I know of three families that are practicing here now. Don’t know if they attend the local LDS services or if they go up in the church because I am personally a dreaded apostate and do not attend.
We have been here for 12 years now and are just now able to discuss a few things with folks in this “closed” community. Last summer I had a discussion with one of the ladies from the “Relief Society”. She informed me that about 50% of her relatives live in Colorado City.
It is a strange mentality here.
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Yes it is, if it is ever published, and if they live. I remember reading about this or a similar effort a year or so ago.
The ancient Syriac, which the koran is written in, makes even native Arabic speakers scratch their heads in places.
Particularly interesting are coins which predate Mo with koranic symbols... the Saudis are doing everything they can to suppress this and other evidence that Mo may never have existed, and that Islam is a much older derivative of another religion aka Meccan lunar/rock worship.
As for the standard text, well that is the main problem, since all the originals were deliberately destroyed to prevent the very thing the Germans are attempting. They have no original sources or authors to compare. Only the Saudi authorized version exists.
How you get that I am a priestess from that boggles the mind.
I can sympathize with you.
There’s people here on FR that think that one just rolls into the local police department and make a polygamy/child abuse report that the police just hop on it. They don’t realize that:
1. the cop might be living the life
2. the prosecutor might be living the life
3. the judge could be living the life
and
4. while the jury may or may not be, they “know people” who are and are sympathetic.
It was a struggle just to get Jeff’s prosecuted, and lo’ & behold, his conviction was overturned. How convenient.
How did he fare in Texas?
Perhaps you are like me, believing it a victimless crime.
I don't believe polygamy should be a crime at all as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult.
You would benefit from more research on this topic
You'd benefit from minding your own business. Unless of course, as you said above, you have personal knowledge of criminal activity. In that case, as I also said above, you should be in touch with the FBI and your State Attorney General.
If you don't have any personal knowledge of criminal actions you should quit being such a nanny State busybody leave these people the hell alone.
L
I believe he is awaiting trial in TX.
Why you bring up this “consenting adult” red herring is a mystery to me, since I already said I agree with that. The problem is, to maintain a polygamist lifestyle from one generation to the next, it will require the sexual abuse of young females. The age of “consent” is dropped lower and lower to increase the pool of available females. The adolescent boys (not of the church hierachy) are abandoned for the same reason; to reduce the supply of males, thus making more females available.
From reading your posts on the topic it’s fairly clear that you haven’t even bothered reading the Hot Air post and lack the most rudimentary facts of this situation. Instead, you are just choosing to apply the Libertarian template to this, and that’s that. It’s not that simple, sparky. There are consequences to the citizens, and that’s not Nanny Statism...it’s reality. Go dig up the term “Lost Boys.”
As far as contacting law enforcement, you may go ahead and read my post to Utah Binger, at # 92.
TROP will demand sharia law and its attendant polygamy..
Since there are a limited number of wives available for addition to the household, competition becomes fierce and inevitably leads to girls being married off at increasingly younger ages. This has nothing to do with the First Amendment.
That’s a little too far of a jump there. However, if you heard a person argue to lower age of consent laws, then yes, you have a pretty good idea of who the person is and what they want.
The primary problem here is that these sects live apart from about the rest of society, and girls get married off at who knows how young, perhaps even younger than even fourteen years of age. How much education have these girls actually had in these living arrangements? Could they hope to do well in the real world?
As far as wives go, women can have a choice. Someone who dates and spends who knows how long finding one wife, women can dump you, or choose not to marry you, women could likewise choose not to marry or live with some guy. As far as imbalance goes, I wouldn’t be jealous of Hugh Hefner for all those women who are pretty much married to him except having a marriage license. Those women aren’t worth my getting married to.
In short, polygamists are likely to remain a minority, even if you include the plural wives. Don’t believe me, think about all the modern issues some guy would have to deal with while having multiple wives, even the guys who are promiscuous do not bother committing to quite the level of marriage. We already have polygamy in some ways, and it’s unlikely to change and create a surplus.
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