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To: edge919
It’s not the French version of ‘indigenae’ that translates into natural born, but the term ‘naturel’

That may be, but Vattel treats the two terms as synonymous: "Les naturels, ou indigenes, sont ceux qui..." So it doesn't matter which one got translated as "natural born"--if we're to rely on Vattel at all, we have to consider the two terms as meaning the same thing.

So if we accept your translation, Vattel used "indigene" to refer to what we call an NBC. But Coke said that "indigenae," or "subjects born," could be the children of a noncitizen. And our Supreme Court accepted that statement and used the term "natural-born subject" in connection with it. If Vattel disagrees with Coke, why should we accept the definitions of a Swiss philosopher over those of an English jurist?

729 posted on 10/16/2010 2:34:03 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical; tired_old_conservative; parsifal

Did you know that Vattel invented Velveeta?

Tex, who misses parsy.


733 posted on 10/16/2010 3:00:13 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (There are those that break and bend. I'm the other kind.)
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
That may be, but Vattel treats the two terms as synonymous: "Les naturels, ou indigenes, sont ceux qui..."

And you understand that to be indigenous or natural born ... in both cases Vattel says you must be born in the country of parents who are citizens??

But Coke said that "indigenae," or "subjects born," could be the children of a noncitizen. And our Supreme Court accepted that statement and used the term "natural-born subject" in connection with it.

Yes, in England this is true ... and it was true for the colonies up through the treaty of 1783. What you're not understanding is that the Supreme Court in at least three different cases used or cited Vattel's definition of natural born citizenship, not Coke's definition of NBS, as determing natural born citizenship.

If Vattel disagrees with Coke, why should we accept the definitions of a Swiss philosopher over those of an English jurist?

Because of what I just noted. In spite of your lame attempt to marginalize Vattel, his work has been cited frequently by the SCOTUS, and in cases that have been decided within the last 10 years. You can go back to The Venus case where Justice Marshall cites Vattel by name about six times. He wrote, for example, "Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says 'The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens.' Justice Waite in Minor v. Happersett wrote, "At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners." His definition of natural born citizen is only slightly reworded from Vattel's definition ... and he calls it 'the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar.' Ben Franklin had received a copy of Vattel's Law of Nations from the person who translated it, and then gave it to the members of the first Congress. George Washington had checked out copies from his library. Jefferson cited Vattel in his own writings. The influence of Vattel is significant, especially in terms of citizenship.

769 posted on 10/16/2010 9:59:09 PM PDT by edge919
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