There is a big difference between sunni extremism, and shiite. Sunnis are the people that every american president since i can recall have been blowing(and i dont mean blowing up) once they get into office. On personal experience, these people, specifically wahhabists in saudi, are the people that need to be reigned in. Shiites throughout history have never been extreme. Depending on your definition of terrorism, I dont think you can objectively classify as terrorists(hezbollah i mean). Yes they blew up the american barracks in the lebanese civil war, and a suicide bomber was used for that attack, but are you telling me would it have been classified as non terrorist had they lobbed a rocket into the building instead? The word has been thrown about alot since 9/11, where every fight now has a terrorist and a good guy. Its kind of ridiculous. Hezbollahs conflicts with israel, are legitamate, israel keep violating lebanese sovereignty, they still occupy about 5km2 of lebanese land, these are all legitamate reasons why a conflict may occur. The lebanese army is not the same as hezbollah.
What i am not understanding, are you expecting lebanese to cheer for israel when they destroy their country? Are you serious? Honestly, if hezbollah was christian there would be no claim of them being terrorists, this is certain. Im not defending islam or hezbollah here, but i call a spade a spade. In fact I hate hezbollah, but i recognize their fight, i dont need to be so blind when i make observations.
The army which had that skirmish with the israeli soldiers on the border, that was clearly a misunderstanding, i am sure that lebanese soldiers dont go around and look for israelis to kill on the border, infact the border lines are very dodgy over there. Seeing at it was the bloodiest piece of violence over that border in the past 4 years, its not much, like another night in new york.
I dont mean to be insulting, but alot of people are showing alot of ignorance, and maybe indifference to the situation there. Many because their evangelical blindness wants all jews to go to israel so they can convert or die, and the end of the world will come. Which is just as looney as extremist islam. There is a severe inability to comment with objectivity on these boards on topics regarding israel, infact i can get more objectivity from my israeli friends than i can from people here. Its always, oh israel, i support them, i dont need to know what they did but i support them. Theyre fighting people who are muslim? terrorist bastards!
As you asked, where do lebanese stand? They support their country and they hate anyone who wants to destabilize it, which is exactly as any person in any country in the world feels. It just so happens, that in recent times hezbollah has defended lebanese rights moreso than any syrian puppet in lebanon has. I say syrian puppet, because all the people the US supports in lebanon were syrian collaborators who stole billions of dollars from the pockets of the lebanese people, who beat the lebanese people, who jailed the lebanese people. You can equate them to the vichy french in world war II, and they should be put to death like any nazi collaborator in that war. Im christian maronite, of lebanese origin. There are more lebanese christians in the US than in lebanon, unfortunately..
I ranted alot there, but its a complicated situation, but as much as i hate hezbollah, i cant objectively call them terrorist, just for the sake of it. Their actions in the 2006 war, showed clearly that they arent targetting civilians, infact as a ratio israel killed more civilians than hezbollah did, i dont know what defines terrorism but there must be some kind of standard. Terrorism is probably the most subjective word in the dictionary, and maybe i think objectively about this situation because im not evangelical and i dont believe in armageddon or wanting all jews to die or get converted or whatever mumbo jumbo theyve convinced themselves of. Infact, when you break it down their “support” is kind of against the interest and safety of israel, as they will technically never want peace, which should it not come will ultimately end in disaster for both sides.
By the way, concerning your entire statement, there is no relative correctness where one man's terrorist is another man's patriot. There ARE just people in this conflict just as there are evil forces - it does not just depend on which side of the fence you sit. Events have happened in history and there is a clear delineation between good and bad.
Judging by your statements you are probably a Lebanese person who wants ALL FOREIGNERS OUT OF LEBANON and that's fine until you begin making claims like (and I am quoting you here):
>>> Your statements
> My responses
>>>Shiites throughout history have never been extreme.
> From what I have read and seen, Shiites kill Sunnis and Sunnis kill Shiites now and 500 years ago. Sometimes they unite to kill Jews or Christians, then they are really united! Both seem extreme and determined to kill the other (and those who disagree with Islam). Islam is at war with itself (Shiite vs. Sunni) and with the rest of the world. Just look at the two possible states in this world as seen by Islam:
Dar Al-Hareb (in a state of permanent war until the entire world is converted (by force if necessary) to Islam.
Dar Al-Islam (Islamic world dominance, world at peace (good joke) now that everyone is Islamic.
Look at the facts all over the Islamic world. The differences between the two is a political one, The Shia Muslims believe that following the Prophet Muhammad's death, leadership should have passed directly to his cousin/son-in-law, Ali.Ever since then it been a mess.
>>>>> Depending on your definition of terrorism, I don't think you can objectively classify as terrorists(Hezbollah i mean).
Most Western countries classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization (fact) or army who have killed or terrorized many of those who oppose them, you know this well I am sure. Hezbollah serves south Lebanon interests by providing many governmental services that the government in Beirut cannot. That includes health and social services but along with those good things comes religious indoctrination, hatred of Israel and surface to surface rockets (aimed at Israel) hiding behind human shields, mosques and schools. YOU KNOW THIS TOO! You also know that Hezbollah is assisted by Iran and Syria and it is just a matter of time before they stage a coup d’etat in Lebanon...this you know too!
>>> The word (terrorism) has been thrown about alot since 9/11, where every fight now has a terrorist and a good guy. Its kind of ridiculous.
>Terrorism has a specific meaning which you are trying to blur and it is not a term “thrown around alot since 9/11” but has been in use for a very long time. The Prince of Terror was Yassir Arafat himself with his Fedayun raiders in the 1950’s till his PLO Al_fatah movement. Again, we see the word terror associated with Muslims albeit they were Socialist or Communists. There are good guys and bad guys, life is not all relative - there are clear terms as to who is good and who is bad.
>>>Hezbollah's conflicts with Israel, are legitimate, Israel keep violating Lebanese sovereignty, they still occupy about 5km2 of Lebanese land, these are all legitimate reasons why a conflict may occur. The Lebanese army is not the same as Hezbollah.
>Hizbollah has a conflict with Israel, Israel does not have a conflict with Hizbollah but when they infiltrate Israel, launch missiles from sovereign Lebanese territory at Israeli cities ON PURPOSE, hoping to kill any civilian then...who is a terrorist? Israel sits inside of Israel so where is the conflict? Israel withdrew from Lebanon, Hizbollah must keep up the “resistance” in order to justify their 80,000 missiles aimed at Israeli cities. Who violates Lebanese soverignty if not Hizbollah, Syria and Iran? Be honest, you know that the Lebanese government is weak and that Hizbollah killed Prime Minister Harari...you know that a coup d’etat in Lebanon is just a matter of time.
>>>What i am not understanding, are you expecting lebanese to cheer for israel when they destroy their country? Are you serious? Honestly, if hezbollah was christian there would be no claim of them being terrorists, this is certain.
> Nobody expects the Lebanese to cheer Israeli RETALIATORY strikes on Lebanese land but then again, where are the true Lebanese patriots when the Hizbollah is using their houses in Beirut (”Dahania” neighborhood) as their HQ?
Where are the loyal Lebanese when the Lebanese army killed hundreds of Palestinians (Fatah al-Islam )at the the Nahr-el-Bared Palestinian refugee camp in 2007? Where are the caring Lebanese when they cannot exert influence over the south of the country? Lebanon has lost control of it's south - and you know this too.
>>>I'm not defending Islam or Hezbollah here, but i call a spade a spade. In fact I hate hezbollah, but i recognize their fight, i don't need to be so blind when i make observations.
> Let me show you your own contradictory statements once again:
>>>Depending on your definition of terrorism, I dont think you can objectively classify as terrorists(hezbollah i mean).
> You're not defending Hizbollah???????????????? “I recognize their fight”???
>>>The army which had that skirmish with the Israeli soldiers on the border, that was clearly a misunderstanding, i am sure that Lebanese soldiers dont go around and look for Israelis to kill on the border, in fact the border lines are very dodgy over there.
>I believe that the Hizbollah now wears Lebanese army uniforms and it was not just a skirmish. The Israeli Army arranged for this operation in advance and was fired upon, actually sniped at by pre-postioned marksmen. Yes, a skirmish followed but it was the Lebanese who opened fire on a tree pruning crew killing a Lt. Col. and wounding a Captain...pretty good shooting in my book...officers only?
>>>I don't mean to be insulting, but alot of people are showing alot of ignorance, and maybe indifference to the situation there. Many because their evangelical blindness wants all Jews to go to Israel so they can convert or die, and the end of the world will come.
>You're blaming Islamic terror and support of Israel because of “Evangelicals”???? Have you ever thought about the fact that one of Islam's main FAULTS is that it never, ever, ever is intellectually honest and maybe shares some of the responsibility for war & terror in the world today? They ALWAYS blame somebody else for their woes. They deny and culpability for ANYTHING. Now it's the Christians fault??? This is typical of backwards thinking - always blame the infidel. Extremism is bad for any faith but why have the Jews & Christians “grown up” as it were? We all know that we are no longer living as Barbarians in the 7th Century - but tell that to Islamic fundamentalists, not evangelical Christians.
As a Maronite have you forgotten PLO (Islamic) atrocities in Damour, Tyre, Sidon in 1976-1982)? Islam swallowed Christianity in Lebanon. How can you support those that will kill you??? I do not understand.
>>>As you asked, where do Lebanese stand? They support their country and they hate anyone who wants to destabilize it, which is exactly as any person in any country in the world feels
> So why do the Lebanese people let Syria/Iran/Hizbollah control the government? Answer: they are too weak? Why have the Gemayel family, the Jumblatt family and the Hariri family all bowed down before Iran and Syria??? Who threatens Lebanon? Israel? Everybody knows Israel has no territorial desire over Lebanon but what about Syria - of course!!
>>>I ranted alot there, but its a complicated situation, but as much as i hate hezbollah, i cant objectively call them terrorist, just for the sake of it. Their actions in the 2006 war, showed clearly that they aren't targeting civilians, in fact as a ratio Israel killed more civilians than hezbollah did, i don't know what defines terrorism but there must be some kind of standard
> Of course, and you have a lot to rant about, I agree with you. I guess you live in America so you can make statements like:
>>>”but as much as i hate hezbollah, i cant objectively call them terrorist, just for the sake of it”.
> What are you talking about Christians are being driven out Lebanon and the whole middle east by the likes of Hizbollah! How can you defends those who drove you out? Are you too scared for your fellow Christians to openly object to those that would kill you?
>>>Their actions in the 2006 war, showed clearly that they aren't targeting civilians, in fact as a ratio israel killed more civilians than hezbollah did, i don't know what defines terrorism but there must be some kind of standard.
> They targeted Israeli cities and the reason that more Israelis weren't killed is because they sat in their bomb shelters for a month! I never fail to be amazed that people look at the kill ratio only as if to say they'd feel better if more Israelis died. Israel protects it citizens as best it can and does not HIDE BEHIND THEM, Hizbollah, HAMAS and all the other TERROR organizations do this for PR purposes and it is sad.
In summation I agree with your conclusions, you are a practical person with the right dreams and hopes. On that I agree with you but you, as a Christian must indeed call a spade a spade and be honest as to whom is really ripping Lebanon to pieces and I have a hint for you...it has nothing to do with Hizbollah’s so-called “resistence” it has to do with keeping Lebanon unstable so that Iran/Syria can completely take control there...God willing they will not succeed and the Lebanese people will truly gain their freedom! Amen!
Oh, bull. They're the ones who invented suicide bombing.
Hezbollah hijacked a civilian airliner in 1985. They tortured an unarmed U.S. sailor on board, a Navy diver, for no reason other than to terrify the other passengers into submission, and they didn't just put panties on his head or pour water on his face and make sure he'd be healthy enough to go back home when it was over, and they weren't looking to get information out of him to prevent a future attack, this was deliberate torture to terrify the CIVILIANS on board the craft. And when they were done having their fun shocking the men, women and children on board, many of whom if not all of whom had no dog in their fight, they murdered him, even though they had already rendered him helpless to interfere with their plans. That's just pure unfiltered evil- that is terrorism. There is no good in such people, there is no honor in such people, and why anyone would think such evil people ha any good motives behind their actions is inexplicable.
Now, remember the airliner was a clearly marked civilian airliner broadcasting a civilian IFF and carried no weapons. There were no Israeli soldiers aboard. There was no way to say "Oops, my bad, I mistook the target for an incoming bomber." Their action was not defensive, it wasn't even preemptive- the target posed no threat to them. Their act was pure aggression. They selected the target specifically because it was defenseless and they knew it wouldn't take any courage on their part to do it.
Not only did they select a nonthreatening target, they attacked it not while wearing identifiable uniforms but in the guise of civilians, which is by itself terrorism.
The term "terrorism" was developed as a humanitarian act to protect noncombatants and third parties from the ravages of war by encouraging nations or groups with a legitimate causes to fight only themselves and not use the innocent as shields. In this way populations and cultures could recover more quickly after disputes had been settled in combat.
The only reason to distinguish betweeen terrorists and soldiers and civilians is to prevent loss of life- otherwise, why bother? The inherent weakness of men who are trying to be moral and honorable is that their reluctance to kill the innocent makes them much more vulnerable to men wihout these good qualities. The reluctance to harm the innocent forces the good to fight their battles as far from civilians as they can and still do the job, or even to pass up opportunities to target an enemy when civilians are in the way. It doesn't take long for an enemy to realize this and if the enemy is unethical enough, to deliberately merge into the population in order to use the innocent as armor- to fire from beneath women's skirts as or guys used to say about terrorists in Somalia.
The trick shedding a uniform and hiding behind women/hospitals/ambulances/schools when lauching attacks, or trying to make weapons specifically for use against civilians is so effective against people with morals that in order to balance things, that it was defined as unlawful in war at Geneva. Unlawful combatants who choose to fight that way would have to risk penalties that lawful combatants- soldiers and militia who put themselves at risk to protect the innocent - would be protected from having to endure. The idea was also to encourage nations to be accountable for the actions of their forces rather than to use proxies to avoid accountability.
You can gnerally tell who the good guys are by noting whose fighters the agitators are willing to throw rocks at. You NEVER throw rocks at evil people - they will just kill you, not fire rubber bullets or use pepper spray. So when we see people chucking rocks at armed Israelis, what does that tell us? It tells us that the Israelis are a humanitarian people showing great restraint, and the rock throwers are just trying to using the ethics of the Israelis to play propaganda wars. No one is stupid enough to throw rocks at a butcher because you won't get to do it twice.
Of course groups which practice unlawful combatant warfare try to whine and complain about how unfair things are that they are called terrorists, but they should be careful what they ask for, or what they ultimately force us to do, because it will only make their cause less likely to succeed. If we ever decided to abandon our moral code and return to all out warfare then the terrorists would be utterly be wiped out albeit at the expense of a great many more innocent people and the lands would be desolate for generations.