Russia's fifth-generation fighter to be cheaper than foreign analogues

RIA Novosti ^ | 7/21/2010 | RIA Novosti

[ErnstStavroBlofeld]

Russia's fifth-generation fighters for export will be cheaper than their foreign analogues, the general director of the aviation companies Sukhoi and MiG said on Tuesday.

"The price of the fifth-generation export variant is an issue for discussion and negotiation. But I can say that we believe its main advantage will be a competitive price margin," Mikhail Pogosyan said, adding that the aircraft would be significantly more expensive than Russia's fourth-generation fighter model.

He said that the new-generation fighter will be presented at the 2011 MAKS air show outside Moscow. Next year you will be able to see how the fifth-generation fighter takes off," Pogosyan said.

Russia's only known fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor, so far the world's only fifth-generation fighter, and the F-35 Lightning II.

In mid-June, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin observed the 16th test flight of a prototype model of the new fighter.

[miliantnutcase]

You get what you pay for...

[taildragger]

Buy 2 one for parts. Maybe call them Fiatskis ?

[ErnstStavroBlofeld]

More like fifth generation junk

[hattend]

We get nothing because the F22 funding was stopped

The Russkie 5 gen may be inferior but at least they will be building and exporting them to all our enemies

The coup d’ gras will be when we buy them too

[mcshot]

Is the raptor line down or are they building a few more?

[Frantzie]

American elected a mus**m and the fools keep supporting TV which enslaves them. He controls hollywood and TV plus the judiciary is corrupt and the Joint Chiefs are cowards.

[Frantzie]

American elected a mus**m and the fools keep supporting TV which enslaves them. He controls hollywood and TV plus the judiciary is corrupt and the Joint Chiefs are cowards.

[hattend]

Last I heard it was kaput

But I don’t stay up on that stuff now like I used to

I’m sure another FReeper will set us straight soon

[bunkerhill7]

Russia’s fifth-generation fighter now on sale at your local Wal-Mart

[Red Steel]

Is the raptor line down or are they building a few more?

They are still building them and the production line goes all the way to 2012.

-snip-

"Lockheed is scheduled to deliver the last of 187 F-22s in early 2012..."

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/03/05/339070/usaf-considers-options-to-preserve-f-22-production-tooling.html

[ntmxx]

This is starting to remind me of a Cold-War Marketing Campaign, for both sides.

So we have decided to give all comers a break and just go with a piece of crude like the F-35 as Raptor knock-offs, and a face lift to the F-18; while the other sides get to play catch-up; just makes ya warm all over for multiculturalism and international cooperation.

Now smart Defense Manufactures, financial and production people would build more F-22s to bring the price down, while letting foreign sales support the JSF/F-35 development. Although I could be mistaken, there is no reason the U.S. should fund and underwrite most if not all the research, development and production of the F-35 without a profit margin.

[cranked]

Cheaper? That is and has always been a given....

[ErnstStavroBlofeld]

Ping

[spetznaz]

Even IF it was '5th generation junk' (and it will not be junk) it would still be better than the legacy 4th generation fighters that make up most, and will make up most, of the fighter base. That is the issue right there that makes me yearn for when a real president will come up and re-open the Raptor lines, because only the F-22 can guarantee an unfair fight in the skies. Nothing else ...not the teen-series of fighters, or the so called 'stealthy' F-15 Silent Eagle (it is hard to make a plane with a RCS of 30m2 truly stealthy simply by giving it internal carriage ....compare that with the RCS of the Rafale which is at 0.1 - 0.3m2), and not even the JSF (sure, it is stealthy in the front aspect against X-band radar, but technically it shouldn't even qualify to be called a '5th generation' airframe if one uses the particulars that were used to denote a 5th generation fighter during the ATF competition that gave rise to the F-22. BAE recently had an article out that stated that the Typhoon was more 5th gen than the JSF, and although they really stretched it, and were wrong since the EF is not 5th gen, they were correct in that the EF is closer to the full requirement list of 5th gen than the JSF ....apart from only X-band stealthiness).

Anyways, in a world where current gen 4.5 planes like the SU-35 greatly threaten legacy fighters, a gen 5 plane (even if it was 'junk') would not be something to laugh at.

We need Raptors ...stick to the original plan. Raptors to kick down the door, and JSFs to mop up the baby seals. 187 Raptors, as envisioned by Rumsfeld (who was the one who cut the numbers ...even though most incorrectly believe it was Obama, who only hammered the nails on the coffin containing the long-dead corpse) are simply not enough if we were to face a near-peer adversary like China and/or Russia. The JSF is not a bad plane, but it can be countered on the L and S bands without much difficulty. The Raptor, on the other hand, has all aspect stealth (btw ...ever seen the rear of the JSF! Ridiculously unstealthy), and has the kinematic ability (mixed with high altitude and all-aspect stealth) to be significantly safer from current and next generation double digit SAM systems. No other plane in the world (not the PakFa, not 'stealthy' F-15s, and definitely not the JSF) can make that claim.

[ErnstStavroBlofeld]

What are your thoughts on this article

http://www.ocnus.net/artman2/publish/Defence_Arms_13/One-Way-to-Disarm.shtml

[spetznaz]

My thoughts: Simply shows the inefficacies and myriad of constraints that plague the Sov-Russian military complex; whether those are rampant corruption at stratified levels, lags both internal and external, and mindless inanity when it comes to how things are done there. I believe the article is quite correct, and the military-industrial complex in Russia has the Russian way of doing things as its own worst enemy. This has also been the case for the longest time, even way back to Stalin's days (an interesting way to spend a boring afternoon would be to look at some of the Russian scientists who were sent to the gulags and some to their deaths ...and then look at some of the creations they were working on). Russia has never been short of brain-power ...it's problem has always been a medley of three things: leaders who really culled a lot of people who could have done great things, a system (communism) that further degraded what was already gasping for air, and finally nigh-systemic corruption and efficiency lags in so many areas it is like having freaking leeches sucking on a warm body from armpit to big toe!

So, those are my thoughts on the article. In my opinion Russia is a good example to the US what happens when socialism, cronyism, inefficiencies and corruption, and bad political leadership take root.

In the same vein, the USA is a good example to Russia what happens when capitalism, good leadership, rule of law and rights, free thought, fostering of enterprise, etc, take root.

Now ...while I agree with the article, that does not mean the T-50 (getting back on topic) will be junk. Not one bit. Russia is not the poor nation of the Yeltsin years (though some still talk of rusting buckets and the like) ...as I mentioned the problem in Russia has NEVER been brains but rather systems (be they political systems, rule of law systems, inefficient systems, corrupt systems, etc). Now Russia has enough money that, even with the lags and leaks, enough goes through to actually end up with something nice.

The T-50 (SU-50PakFa) will not be junk. Looking at the SU-35, it only needs to be better than that, faster, stealthier, to be the most lethal thing in the skies after the Raptor.

So, if the article is to inquire whether I think the Russian military-industrial complex has severe constraints ...well, the answer is yes, it does. However, that does not mean the PakFa is '5th generation junk' because their '4.5 generation junk' (in particular the SU-35 now been planned to come out) is already at a greater level as the Rafale and Typhoon.

[ErnstStavroBlofeld]

I appreciate your honesty

[spetznaz]

Most welcome, sir. I simply call it as I see it ...right or wrong. :)

[ErnstStavroBlofeld]

I wish there were more!