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To: conimbricenses
We have two witnesses who say that the man reached for a gun. Contrary to what you see on TV, the police do not have to wait until a gun is pointed at them before they fire. In fact, waiting that long is a deadly mistake. Are you familiar with the tueller drill? If a person is standing 21 feet from you with a knife, then can cover that distance and stab you before you can draw and fire a weapon. Why? Action beats reaction. The brain has to process that a threat is taking place, and then cause the motor response to pull the trigger.

Likewise, if a person has a gun in their waistband and makes the decision to draw and fire it, they automatically have the advantage over someone who must process that threat and respond. Thus, if officers wait until the gun starts to come up, it's too late.

If you reach for a gun, you are in the midst if initiating a deadly force encounter. We don't judge incidents with 20/20 hindsight. We judge them from that moment in time, from the perspective of a reasonable officer.

Thus, the only thing that we examine, is whether it was objectively reasonable to fire at someone who reached for a weapon (according to two separate eyewitnesses) after being told not to move.

Remember, the police in that situation do not get the benefit of knowing all the extra information that you get to examine after the fact. They know that they have a guy with a gun in front of them, and he reaches for the weapon. That's it. Make an objectively reasonable decision in less than 2 seconds.

259 posted on 07/13/2010 10:05:22 AM PDT by freedomwarrior998
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To: freedomwarrior998
We have two witnesses who say that the man reached for a gun.

And others who say he didn't. I guess we'll need to see the videos, if available.

263 posted on 07/13/2010 10:11:22 AM PDT by Fundamentally Fair (Bush: Mission Accomplished. Obama: Commission Accomplished.)
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To: freedomwarrior998
They know that they have a guy with a gun in front of them, and he reaches for the weapon. That's it. Make an objectively reasonable decision in less than 2 seconds.

What if one of the officers had ordered him to "drop the weapon" and he was just complying with the request by reaching for his gun? At least one of the witnesses said he heard this request, if I recall correctly. I'll go back and read the thread again.
264 posted on 07/13/2010 10:11:43 AM PDT by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: freedomwarrior998
the police do not have to wait until a gun is pointed at them before they fire.

Obviously. In fact the person does not even have to be holding a gun at all. He could be holding a taco for all they care, but if the cop wrongly mistakes that taco for a gun he feels he has free reign to open fire. And therein lies the problem.

By the way, the Tueller drill is pseudo-scientific nonsense based on a misinterpreted article from a trade magazine article in the 1980's. It was originally posed as a piece of "rule of thumb" style advice in that article and has not been scientifically verified in a controlled test.

270 posted on 07/13/2010 10:18:19 AM PDT by conimbricenses
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To: freedomwarrior998

Only one problem with your scenario. In this case the officers already had their guns drawn and aimed at the individual. Reaction time to simply squeeze the trigger is almost zero.

If the man’s gun never came out of the holster they had absolutely no reason to kill him.


271 posted on 07/13/2010 10:19:49 AM PDT by EternalVigilance (No matter who you think you are, God retains His pardon and veto powers.)
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