HOLLISTER v. SOETORO - JOINT LETTER FILED - advising of additional authorities.

Scribd ^ | 5/25/2010 | John David Hemenway

[rxsid]

A rule 28(j) letter has just been filed in Hollister v. Soetoro citing the actual language of Vattel from his 1756 treatise and David Ramsay’s essay as well as St. George Tucker’s American edition of Blackstone with commentaries on the Constitution in contrast to the common law.

From the letter:

 

Re:Hollister v. Soetoro, No. 09-5080, consolidating No. 09-5161

Dear Sir:

I write pursuant to Rule 28(j) to bring to the attention of the Court supplemental authority which has come to our attention since we filed our briefs in the case, now under reconsideration. This authority is about the issue of the phrase “natural born citizen” in Art. II, Sec. 1, Cl. 5 of the Constitution, which is central to our contention that if the allegations of the complaint be taken as true a case was made and the said central issue should have been treated, but wasn’t. In prior filings we cited the 19th century case authority pointing to the work of Vattel on the Law of Nations as the origin of the thinking behind that phrase. (pp.5, 35-6)

Now we cite Vattel in his“Le Droit des Gens ou Principes de la Loi Naturelle 1758 (English 1759) from Vol. 1 (of 2) Chpt. XIX, 212, Des citoyens et naturels: “Les naturels, ou indigenes, sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de parens citoyens.” Unmistakably he says that those are natural born citizens who are born in the country of citizen parents.

David Ramsay, founding father from South Carolina who served in the Continental Congress in 1782-83 and 1785-86, wrote early histories of the founding. In his 1789 essay “A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen” pp. 6-7 describes the “natural born citizen” as one born in the country of citizen parents. He knew all the participants and worked with them in his role as a member of the Congress.

St. George Tucker emigrated from Bermuda before the Revolution, in which he fought extensively. He married the widowed mother of John Randolph of Roanoke, by whom he had two children. He taught law for years at William and Mary. In 1804 he published the leading American version of Blackstone of the time, in which he correlated Blackstone with the Constitution. In the Appendix to Vol. 1, Note D, Sec. 14 he makes clear that the Framers relied upon Vattel’s definition above, not the common law concept concerning “subjects.” He gives examples why.

Sincerely yours,

/s/

John D. Hemenway

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31897641/HOLLISTER-v-SOETORO-JOINT-LETTER-FILED-Advising-of-Additional-Authorities

[omegadawn]

According to currents laws in the District of Columbia, code 3501 applies in this situation. In the past when a elected official was found to be ineligible due to citizenship , the ‘runnerup’ was given the office as they would have the majority of the “legal ‘ votes. As much as I dislike McCain, he is the legal President of the United States. Your’re right about biden and pelosi , both are tainted and disqualifed from being President.

[jamese777]

According to currents laws in the District of Columbia, code 3501 applies in this situation. In the past when a elected official was found to be ineligible due to citizenship , the ‘runnerup’ was given the office as they would have the majority of the “legal ‘ votes. As much as I dislike McCain, he is the legal President of the United States. Your’re right about biden and pelosi , both are tainted and disqualifed from being President.

---

The US Constitution takes precedence over the District of Columbia Code and the 25th Amendment to the US Constitution which was ratified in 1967 says:
Section 1.
In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.

Section 2.

Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

Section 3.

Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.

Section 4.

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

Passed July 6, 1965. Ratified February 11, 1967.

[Seizethecarp]

“For the record this lawsuit, “Hollister v Soetoro” was dismissed by the US District Court for the District of Columbia and the judge imposed a reprimand sanction on the plaintiff’s attorney for filing a “frivolous” lawsuit. The dismissal was upheld by the US Court of Appeals.”

For the record Judge Robertson reconsidered his previous more severe sanction and dropped the punishment to just the reprimand. Eligibility activists contend that the more severe sanction could have opened the door for Hemenway to request discovery of Obama’s HI vital records to prove that his lawsuit was not frivolous.

The judge also explicitly stated that he had made no ruling regarding Hemenway’s contentions that Obama was not NBC and the explicitly said he did not reach that issue as he had ruled that Hollister “failed to state a claim on which relief could be granted.” As with the other 66 dismissed cases you love to cite, the issue of Obama’s NBC statue has never been litigated on the merits.

Judge Rogerson:

“I have said nothing, and have nothing to say, about the
merits of the “natural born Citizen” question that Messrs.
Hemenway, Berg, et al., have sought to present here. I have no business addressing the merits, because, having found that Mr. Hemenway’s interpleader suit failed to state a claim upon which relief can be granted, I have dismissed it.”

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13613272/Hollister-ORDER-Finding-Rule-11-Violation-in-Hollister-v-Soetoro-March-24-2009

[Seizethecarp]

That would of course be Judge James Robertson not Rogerson in the final quote(the brain is going...)

“I have said nothing, and have nothing to say, about the
merits of the “natural born Citizen” question that Messrs.
Hemenway, Berg, et al., have sought to present here. I have no business addressing the merits, because, having found that Mr. Hemenway’s interpleader suit failed to state a claim upon which relief can be granted, I have dismissed it.”

[jamese777]

United States Court of Appeals
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
____________
No. 09-5080 September Term 2009
08-cv-02254
Filed On: March 22, 2010
Gregory S. Hollister,
Appellant
v.
Barry Soetoro, in his capacity as a natural
person; de facto President in posse; and as de
jure President in posse, also known as Barack
Obama, et al.,
Appellees

---

Consolidated with 09-5161
ON APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
BEFORE:Henderson, Tatel, and Garland, Circuit Judges
J U D G M E N T
These consolidated appeals were considered on the record from the United States District Court for the District of Columbia and on the briefs filed by the parties.
See Fed. R. App. P. 34(a)(2); D.C. Cir. Rule 34(j). It is
ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that the district court’s orders filed March 5, 2009, and March 24, 2009, be affirmed. The district court correctly dismissed the complaint under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 12(b)(6) for failure to state a claim upon which relief could be granted. Hollister v. Soetoro, 601 F. Supp. 2d 179 (D.D.C. 2009).
Moreover, the district court did not abuse its discretion in determining that counsel had violated Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11(b)(2) and in imposing a reprimand as the
sanction for his part in preparing, filing, and prosecuting a legally frivolous complaint.
Hollister v. Soetoro, 258 F.R.D. 1 (D.D.C. 2009). Appellants have provided no reasonable basis for questioning the impartiality of the district court judge. See Liteky v.United States, 510 U.S. 540 (1994).
http://www.scribd.com/doc/28745277/HOLLISTER-v-SOETORO-PER-CURIAM-JUDGMENT-filed-Lower-Court-Affirmed-Transport-Room

[Red Steel]

The judge also explicitly stated that he had made no ruling regarding Hemenway’s contentions that Obama was not NBC and the explicitly said he did not reach that issue as he had ruled that Hollister “failed to state a claim on which relief could be granted.” As with the other 66 dismissed cases you love to cite, the issue of Obama’s NBC statue has never been litigated on the merits.

A lame excuse and as Justice Thomas accurately said to describe what is happening - that the US judiciary are 'evading' the Obama eligibility issue.

[Seizethecarp]

Your reposting the Appeals Court upholding only affirms Robertson's own characterization of his own ruling that the Appeals Court upheld.

Judge Robertson:

“I have said nothing, and have nothing to say, about the
merits of the “natural born Citizen” question that Messrs.
Hemenway, Berg, et al., have sought to present here. I have no business addressing the merits, because, having found that Mr. Hemenway’s interpleader suit failed to state a claim upon which relief can be granted, I have dismissed it.”

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13613272/Hollister-ORDER-Finding-Rule-11-Violation-in-Hollister-v-Soetoro-March-24-2009

[Seizethecarp]

I will grant that Robertson made at least a non-frivolous argument for dismissal of this case, but was the following snark necessary?

Robertson:

“John D. Hemenway is a lawyer and a member of the bar of
this court. The dispute that he attempted to litigate here was about whether or not Barack Obama is a “natural born Citizen,” and thereby qualified under Article II, section 1 of the Constitution to be President. Many people, perhaps as many as a couple of dozen, feel deeply about this issue.”

A couple of dozen? What does an erroneous public opinion poll in the judge's mind have to do with the merits of the case? This, like the “blogged and twittered” comment ranks right up there as a display of inappropriate judicial bias.

[omegadawn]

I’am very familiar with your information, but it does’nt apply to obama. If it proven that obama was never constitutionaly ineligible to be President then his election is voided (no impeachment). He was never the ‘legal’ President and the 25 th amendment does not apply. If obama was removed for any reason (impeachment ) other than being ineligible then you are correct and the 25th applies. Only a Natural Born citizen can be President, regardless of the election,obama can never be considered the the Legal President of the United States.

[rxsid]

HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN?

“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html

Factcheck.org goes on to say this about Obama Sr., Jr. and the British Nationality Act of 1948:

In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html

 

Even the modern day State Department rules discusses the problems associated with dual citizenship:

7 FAM 081: U.S. Policy on Dual Nationality:

(e)While recognizing the existence of dual nationality, the U.S. Government does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Dual nationality may hamper efforts by the U.S. Government to provide diplomatic and consular protection to individuals overseas. When a U.S. citizen is in the other country of their dual nationality, that country has a predominant claim on the person.

...

the U.S. Supreme Court has stated that dual nationality is a "status long recognized in the law" and that "a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both." See Kawakita v. United States, 343 U.S. 717 (1952).

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86563.pdf

So, back to the question: "HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN?"
It can't. Of course not. Yet, right there, on his campaign web site F.T.S., it's stated that a foreign government "governed" Barry from birth and the reason it did, was that Barry inherited that foreign citizenship by way of his foreign national father (no matter where he was born), a fact backed up by Factcheck.org. Assuming, of course, that Sr. was his legal father at birth.
How, then, could he possibly be a "Natural Born Citizen" of the U.S.?
Barry Soetoro, the divided citizen at birth!

Barack Obama a/k/a Barry Soetoro *	NOT Obama / Soetoro
* This assumes HI birth. A citizen of 2 countries at birth.

http://www.jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com

Furthermore:  Hawaii's Territorial Law, Chapter 57 - "VITAL STATISTICS, I", shown beginning pg 23 of 29, (the law in effect in 1961) allowed the parents (or grandparents or other relative) of baby's born anywhere in the world to be eligible to apply for a Hawaiian birth certificate. A mailed-in form (without mention of a hospital, doctor, or midwife) signed by one of his grandparents (who forged the parent signature(s)) would have been enough to set up a birth record and a birth certificate at the Dept of Health. The Dept of Health would (presumably) then have automatically sent the names of the parents, their address as given on the mailed-in form , the gender of the child, and the date of birth to the Honolulu Advertiser and Star-Bulletin. The address given for the parents in the newspaper announcements is actually, however, the August 1961 home address of Obama’s maternal grandparents Stanley and Madelyn Dunham [6085 Kalanianaole Highway], and not the 1961 home address of Barack Obama, Sr. [625 11th Ave].) This notification would then have automatically generated the newspaper announcements. (This was the practice of the Honolulu Advertiser and Star-Bulletin at the time).

Bottom line: Even IF (big IF) he was born in HI, he inherited his father's foreign citizenship as well, making him a US citizen by US law and a subject to the crown of her majesty the Queen of England by inheritance, birthright and England's law. He could not be considered a Natural Born Citizen as known by and as intended by the framers.
 
==============================================================================
 
What follows, is a bit of information with regards to the Constitutional term "Natural Born Citizen" (specifically) and NOT about the entire makeup, functions, origins and influences that made/make up our form of government, a Constitutional Republic. Clearly, the framers relied upon many different sources to create our new form of government.

Who, or "what" constituted a natural born citizen was well known to the framers. Jay would not have made such a suggestion to the others (Washington & the rest of those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention) unless there was a clear understanding of what that term meant. The definition comes from a source that not only were the framers familiar with, but the founders (many who were both) as well. And yes, even though most could not speak French, most read French (except, notably, Washington who would defer to Jefferson when such interpretation was needed).

 

NBC in the Constitutional drafts:

June 18th, 1787 - Alexander Hamilton suggests that the requirement be added, as: "No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States." Works of Alexander Hamilton (page 407).

July 25, 1787 (~5 weeks later) - John Jay writes a letter to General Washington (president of the Constitutional Convention): "Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen." [the word born is underlined in Jay's letter which signifies the importance of allegiance from birth.] http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field%28DOCID+@lit%28fr00379%29%29:

September 2nd, 1787 George Washington pens a letter to John Jay. The last line reads: "I thank you for the hints contained in your letter"
http://www.consource.org/index.asp?bid=582&fid=600&documentid=71483

September 4th, 1787 (~6 weeks after Jay's letter and just 2 days after Washington wrote back to Jay) - The "Natural Born Citizen" requirement is now found in their drafts. Madison's notes of the Convention
The proposal passed unanimously without debate.

 

Original French version of Vattel's Law of Nations:

Emer de Vattel, Le droit des gens, ou Principes de la loi naturelle, vol. 1 (of 2) [1758]

From Chapter XIX, 212 (page 248 of 592):
Title in French: "Des citoyens et naturels"
To English: "Citizens and natural"

French text (about citizens): "Les citoyens sont les membres de la societe civile : lies a cette societe par certains devoirs et soumis a son autorite, ils participent avec egalite a ses avantages."
-------------------
To English: "The citizens are the members of the civil society: linked to this society by certain duties and subject to its authority, they participate with equality has its advantages."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
French text (about "natural" born citizens): "Les naturels, ou indigenes, sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de parens citoyens"
-------------------
To English, gives this: "the natural, or indigenous, are those born in the country, parents who are citizens"

A detailed, historical, etymology of the term "Natural Born Citizen" can be found here: http://www.greschak.com/essays/natborn/index.htm

Prior to the Constitution

"This 1758 work by Swiss legal philosopher Emmerich de Vattel is of special importance to scholars of constitutional history and law, for it was read by many of the Founders of the United States of America, and informed their understanding of the principles of law which became established in the Constitution of 1787. Chitty's notes and the appended commentaries by Edward D. Ingraham, used in lectures at William and Mary College, provide a valuable perspective on Vattel's exposition from the viewpoint of American jurists who had adapted those principles to the American legal experience."

Vattel's Law of Nations, built upon "natural law - which has it's roots in ancient Greece, was influenced by Leibniz.
Even Blackstone affirmed the basis of natural law:
"This law of nature, being co-eval with mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original” (1979, 41). In this passage, Blackstone articulates the two claims that constitute the theoretical core of conceptual naturalism: 1) there can be no legally valid standards that conflict with the natural law; and 2) all valid laws derive what force and authority they have from the natural law."

Thomas Jefferson (for one example) had the 1758 version as well as a 1775 version in his own library:
Thomas Jefferson's Library: A Catalog with the Entries in His Own Order (under a section he titled "Ethics. Law of Nature and Nations."

In AUTOBIOGRAPHY by Thomas Jefferson, he states: "On the 1st of June 1779. I was appointed Governor of the Commonwealth and retired from the legislature. Being elected also one of the Visitors of Wm. & Mary college, a self-electing body, I effected, during my residence in Williamsburg that year, a change in the organization of that institution by abolishing the Grammar school, and the two professorships of Divinity & Oriental languages, and substituting a professorship of Law & Police, one of Anatomy Medicine and Chemistry, and one of Modern languages; and the charter confining us to six professorships, we added the law of Nature & Nations..." This was 8 years prior the the writing of the Constitution! [See the "Law of Nature & Nations" section of his personal library to get an idea of what he included in this curriculum in America's 1st law school].

Note: Vattel, is one of only 10 "footnotes" in Jefferson's Biography, from Yale.

Prior to Jay's famous letter to those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention, we see (one of many exchanges between the founders) a letter from Madison ("father" of the Constitution) to Jay:

"James Madison, as a member of the Continental Congress in 1780, drafted the instructions sent to John Jay, for negotiating a treaty with Spain, which quotes at length from The Law of Nations. Jay complained that this letter, which was probably read by the Spanish government, was not in code, and "Vattel's Law of Nations, which I found quoted in a letter from Congress, is prohibited here.[29]"
From: Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness. How the Natural Law concept of G.W. Leibniz Inspired America's Founding Fathers.

The concepts of "natural law" and the phrase "Laws of Nature" (of which Law of Nations is built upon) are found within the Declaration of Independence itself:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

Those (& others) are clearly NOT derived from English law, but rather from natural law concepts (which can be found in Vattel's Law of Nations for ex.).

The Constitution

The concepts of "natural law" continued in the Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union

...

Article 1. section 8, clause 10:

"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations"

Again, those phrases are not from English common law, but rather from natural law and even mention Vattel's book by name, "Law of Nations."

After the Constitution is penned

Founder and Historian David Ramsay Defines a Natural Born Citizen in 1789.
David Ramsay (April 2, 1749 to May 8, 1815) was an American physician, patriot, and historian from South Carolina and a delegate from that state to the Continental Congress in 1782-1783 and 1785-1786. He was the Acting President of the United States in Congress Assembled. He was one of the American Revolution’s first major historians. A contemporary of Washington, Ramsay writes with the knowledge and insights one acquires only by being personally involved in the events of the Founding period.

Ramsay REAFFIRMS the definition a Natural Born Citizen (born in country, to citizen parents (plural)) in 1789 A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen (1789)

The Naturalization Act of 1790, which states (in relevant part) "that the children of citizens [plural] of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens"

Of course, the Act of 1790 was repealed by the Act of 1795 (which did NOT attempt to define or extend the definition for NBC). What the 1st Congress had tried to do in 1790 was to EXTEND the known definition (of born in country to citizen parentS) to those born outside of sovereign territory, to citizen parentS. Of course, they can't do that. Congress (by itself) doesn't have the Constitutional authority to define (or EXTEND) the Constitutional term "Natural Born Citizen." Only a SCOTUS decision on the intent of the framers, or an amendment to the Constitution can do that.

The same definition was referenced in the dicta of many early SCOTUS cases as well...some examples:

"THE VENUS, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (Marshall, C.J. concurring) (cites Vattel’s definition of Natural Born Citizen)
SHANKS V. DUPONT, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830) (same definition without citing Vattel)
MINOR V. HAPPERSETT, 88 U.S.162,167-168 ( 1875) (same definition without citing Vattel)
EX PARTE REYNOLDS, 1879, 5 Dill., 394, 402 (same definition and cites Vattel)
UNITED STATES V WARD, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D. Cal. 1890) (same definition and cites Vattel.)"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17519578/Kerchner-v-Obama-Congress-DOC-34-Plaintiffs-Brief-Opposing-Defendants-Motion-to-Dismiss

The New Englander, Volume 3 (1845) states: "The expression ‘citizen of the United States occurs in the clauses prescribing qualifications for Representatives, for Senators, and for President. In the latter, the term ‘natural born citizen’ is used and excludes all persons owing allegiance by birth to foreign states."
Note: the "New Englander" was NOT a student law review. The first student law review appeared 30 years later, in 1875/76 at the Albany Law School..

Vattel's definition for "natural born citizen" was read into the Congressional Record after the Civil War.
John Bingham, "father" of the 14th Amendment, the abolitionist congressman from Ohio who prosecuted Lincoln's assassins, REAFFIRMED the definition known to the framers by saying this:

commenting on Section 1992 said it means “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))"

SCOTUS, in an 1887 case cites Vattel a number of times and reitterates that his work was translated into English in 1760:
"Vattel in his Law of Nations, which was first printed at Neuchatel in 1758, and was translated into English and published in England in 1760" U S v. ARJONA, 120 U.S. 479 (1887)

It's interesting to note that (non binding) Senate Resolution 511, which attempted to proclaim that Sen. John McCain was a "Natural Born Citizen" because he was born to citizen parentS, even they referenced the (repealed) Naturalization Act of 1790: "Whereas such limitations would be inconsistent with the purpose and intent of the `natural born Citizen' clause of the Constitution of the United States, as evidenced by the First Congress's own statute defining the term `natural born Citizen'".
Obama, himself, was a signatory of that resolution knowing full well (no doubt) the requirement has always been about 2 citizen parents.

The point is, with the exception of the repealed Act of 1790 which tried to EXTEND the definition, the meaning of the term "Natural Born Citizen" has ALWAYS been about being born within the sovereign territory or jurisdiction of the U.S. to 2 citizen parents (& therefore parents who do NOT owe allegiance to another, foreign, country).

[jamese777]

I’am very familiar with your information, but it does’nt apply to obama. If it proven that obama was never constitutionaly ineligible to be President then his election is voided (no impeachment). He was never the ‘legal’ President and the 25 th amendment does not apply. If obama was removed for any reason (impeachment ) other than being ineligible then you are correct and the 25th applies. Only a Natural Born citizen can be President, regardless of the election,obama can never be considered the the Legal President of the United States.

---

The courts disagree with you. Every one of 69 Obama eligibility lawsuits, including seven attempts at the US Supreme Court have been summarily dismissed, denied or rejected from being heard.
The state of Hawaii, with a Republican Governor and a Republican Attorney General have confirmed Obama’s birth there.
“I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.”—July 27, 2009

Judges tend to listen to the state official who is appointed to oversee vital records and who works for a Governor of the opposite political party of the person in question.

[jamese777]

HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN’S STATUS BE “GOVERNED” BY GREAT BRITAIN?

“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.
http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html
Factcheck.org goes on to say this about Obama Sr., Jr. and the British Nationality Act of 1948:

In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html

Even the modern day State Department rules discusses the problems associated with dual citizenship:

7 FAM 081: U.S. Policy on Dual Nationality:
(e)While recognizing the existence of dual nationality, the U.S. Government does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Dual nationality may hamper efforts by the U.S. Government to provide diplomatic and consular protection to individuals overseas. When a U.S. citizen is in the other country of their dual nationality, that country has a predominant claim on the person.

...

the U.S. Supreme Court has stated that dual nationality is a “status long recognized in the law” and that “a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both.” See Kawakita v. United States, 343 U.S. 717 (1952).

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86563.pdf
So, back to the question: “HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN’S STATUS BE “GOVERNED” BY GREAT BRITAIN?”
It can’t. Of course not. Yet, right there, on his campaign web site F.T.S., it’s stated that a foreign government “governed” Barry from birth and the reason it did, was that Barry inherited that foreign citizenship by way of his foreign national father (no matter where he was born), a fact backed up by Factcheck.org. Assuming, of course, that Sr. was his legal father at birth.
How, then, could he possibly be a “Natural Born Citizen” of the U.S.?
Barry Soetoro, the divided citizen at birth!

Barack Obama a/k/a Barry Soetoro * NOT Obama / Soetoro

* This assumes HI birth.
A citizen of 2 countries at birth.

http://www.jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com

Furthermore: Hawaii’s Territorial Law, Chapter 57 - “VITAL STATISTICS, I”, shown beginning pg 23 of 29, (the law in effect in 1961) allowed the parents (or grandparents or other relative) of baby’s born anywhere in the world to be eligible to apply for a Hawaiian birth certificate. A mailed-in form (without mention of a hospital, doctor, or midwife) signed by one of his grandparents (who forged the parent signature(s)) would have been enough to set up a birth record and a birth certificate at the Dept of Health. The Dept of Health would (presumably) then have automatically sent the names of the parents, their address as given on the mailed-in form , the gender of the child, and the date of birth to the Honolulu Advertiser and Star-Bulletin. The address given for the parents in the newspaper announcements is actually, however, the August 1961 home address of Obama’s maternal grandparents Stanley and Madelyn Dunham [6085 Kalanianaole Highway], and not the 1961 home address of Barack Obama, Sr. [625 11th Ave].) This notification would then have automatically generated the newspaper announcements. (This was the practice of the Honolulu Advertiser and Star-Bulletin at the time).

Bottom line: Even IF (big IF) he was born in HI, he inherited his father’s foreign citizenship as well, making him a US citizen by US law and a subject to the crown of her majesty the Queen of England by inheritance, birthright and England’s law. He could not be considered a Natural Born Citizen as known by and as intended by the framers.

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What follows, is a bit of information with regards to the Constitutional term “Natural Born Citizen” (specifically) and NOT about the entire makeup, functions, origins and influences that made/make up our form of government, a Constitutional Republic. Clearly, the framers relied upon many different sources to create our new form of government.

Who, or “what” constituted a natural born citizen was well known to the framers. Jay would not have made such a suggestion to the others (Washington & the rest of those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention) unless there was a clear understanding of what that term meant. The definition comes from a source that not only were the framers familiar with, but the founders (many who were both) as well. And yes, even though most could not speak French, most read French (except, notably, Washington who would defer to Jefferson when such interpretation was needed).

NBC in the Constitutional drafts:

June 18th, 1787 - Alexander Hamilton suggests that the requirement be added, as: “No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States.” Works of Alexander Hamilton (page 407).

July 25, 1787 (~5 weeks later) - John Jay writes a letter to General Washington (president of the Constitutional Convention): “Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.” [the word born is underlined in Jay’s letter which signifies the importance of allegiance from birth.] http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field%28DOCID+@lit%28fr00379%29%29:

September 2nd, 1787 George Washington pens a letter to John Jay. The last line reads: “I thank you for the hints contained in your letter”
http://www.consource.org/index.asp?bid=582&fid=600&documentid=71483

September 4th, 1787 (~6 weeks after Jay’s letter and just 2 days after Washington wrote back to Jay) - The “Natural Born Citizen” requirement is now found in their drafts. Madison’s notes of the Convention
The proposal passed unanimously without debate.

Original French version of Vattel’s Law of Nations:

Emer de Vattel, Le droit des gens, ou Principes de la loi naturelle, vol. 1 (of 2) [1758]

From Chapter XIX, 212 (page 248 of 592):
Title in French: “Des citoyens et naturels”
To English: “Citizens and natural”

French text (about citizens): “Les citoyens sont les membres de la societe civile : lies a cette societe par certains devoirs et soumis a son autorite, ils participent avec egalite a ses avantages.”

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To English: “The citizens are the members of the civil society: linked to this society by certain duties and subject to its authority, they participate with equality has its advantages.”

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French text (about “natural” born citizens): “Les naturels, ou indigenes, sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de parens citoyens”

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To English, gives this: “the natural, or indigenous, are those born in the country, parents who are citizens”

A detailed, historical, etymology of the term “Natural Born Citizen” can be found here: http://www.greschak.com/essays/natborn/index.htm

Prior to the Constitution

“This 1758 work by Swiss legal philosopher Emmerich de Vattel is of special importance to scholars of constitutional history and law, for it was read by many of the Founders of the United States of America, and informed their understanding of the principles of law which became established in the Constitution of 1787. Chitty’s notes and the appended commentaries by Edward D. Ingraham, used in lectures at William and Mary College, provide a valuable perspective on Vattel’s exposition from the viewpoint of American jurists who had adapted those principles to the American legal experience.”

Vattel’s Law of Nations, built upon “natural law - which has it’s roots in ancient Greece, was influenced by Leibniz.
Even Blackstone affirmed the basis of natural law:
“This law of nature, being co-eval with mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original” (1979, 41). In this passage, Blackstone articulates the two claims that constitute the theoretical core of conceptual naturalism: 1) there can be no legally valid standards that conflict with the natural law; and 2) all valid laws derive what force and authority they have from the natural law.”

Thomas Jefferson (for one example) had the 1758 version as well as a 1775 version in his own library:
Thomas Jefferson’s Library: A Catalog with the Entries in His Own Order (under a section he titled “Ethics. Law of Nature and Nations.”

In AUTOBIOGRAPHY by Thomas Jefferson, he states: “On the 1st of June 1779. I was appointed Governor of the Commonwealth and retired from the legislature. Being elected also one of the Visitors of Wm. & Mary college, a self-electing body, I effected, during my residence in Williamsburg that year, a change in the organization of that institution by abolishing the Grammar school, and the two professorships of Divinity & Oriental languages, and substituting a professorship of Law & Police, one of Anatomy Medicine and Chemistry, and one of Modern languages; and the charter confining us to six professorships, we added the law of Nature & Nations...” This was 8 years prior the the writing of the Constitution! [See the “Law of Nature & Nations” section of his personal library to get an idea of what he included in this curriculum in America’s 1st law school].

Note: Vattel, is one of only 10 “footnotes” in Jefferson’s Biography, from Yale.

Prior to Jay’s famous letter to those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention, we see (one of many exchanges between the founders) a letter from Madison (”father” of the Constitution) to Jay:

“James Madison, as a member of the Continental Congress in 1780, drafted the instructions sent to John Jay, for negotiating a treaty with Spain, which quotes at length from The Law of Nations. Jay complained that this letter, which was probably read by the Spanish government, was not in code, and “Vattel’s Law of Nations, which I found quoted in a letter from Congress, is prohibited here.[29]”
From: Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness. How the Natural Law concept of G.W. Leibniz Inspired America’s Founding Fathers.

The concepts of “natural law” and the phrase “Laws of Nature” (of which Law of Nations is built upon) are found within the Declaration of Independence itself:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
Those (& others) are clearly NOT derived from English law, but rather from natural law concepts (which can be found in Vattel’s Law of Nations for ex.).
The Constitution

The concepts of “natural law” continued in the Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union
...

Article 1. section 8, clause 10:

“To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations”

Again, those phrases are not from English common law, but rather from natural law and even mention Vattel’s book by name, “Law of Nations.”
After the Constitution is penned

Founder and Historian David Ramsay Defines a Natural Born Citizen in 1789.
David Ramsay (April 2, 1749 to May 8, 1815) was an American physician, patriot, and historian from South Carolina and a delegate from that state to the Continental Congress in 1782-1783 and 1785-1786. He was the Acting President of the United States in Congress Assembled. He was one of the American Revolution’s first major historians. A contemporary of Washington, Ramsay writes with the knowledge and insights one acquires only by being personally involved in the events of the Founding period.

Ramsay REAFFIRMS the definition a Natural Born Citizen (born in country, to citizen parents (plural)) in 1789 A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen (1789)

The Naturalization Act of 1790, which states (in relevant part) “that the children of citizens [plural] of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens”

Of course, the Act of 1790 was repealed by the Act of 1795 (which did NOT attempt to define or extend the definition for NBC). What the 1st Congress had tried to do in 1790 was to EXTEND the known definition (of born in country to citizen parentS) to those born outside of sovereign territory, to citizen parentS. Of course, they can’t do that. Congress (by itself) doesn’t have the Constitutional authority to define (or EXTEND) the Constitutional term “Natural Born Citizen.” Only a SCOTUS decision on the intent of the framers, or an amendment to the Constitution can do that.

The same definition was referenced in the dicta of many early SCOTUS cases as well...some examples:

“THE VENUS, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (Marshall, C.J. concurring) (cites Vattel’s definition of Natural Born Citizen)
SHANKS V. DUPONT, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830) (same definition without citing Vattel)
MINOR V. HAPPERSETT, 88 U.S.162,167-168 ( 1875) (same definition without citing Vattel)
EX PARTE REYNOLDS, 1879, 5 Dill., 394, 402 (same definition and cites Vattel)
UNITED STATES V WARD, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D. Cal. 1890) (same definition and cites Vattel.)”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17519578/Kerchner-v-Obama-Congress-DOC-34-Plaintiffs-Brief-Opposing-Defendants-Motion-to-Dismiss

The New Englander, Volume 3 (1845) states: “The expression ‘citizen of the United States occurs in the clauses prescribing qualifications for Representatives, for Senators, and for President. In the latter, the term ‘natural born citizen’ is used and excludes all persons owing allegiance by birth to foreign states.”
Note: the “New Englander” was NOT a student law review. The first student law review appeared 30 years later, in 1875/76 at the Albany Law School..

Vattel’s definition for “natural born citizen” was read into the Congressional Record after the Civil War.
John Bingham, “father” of the 14th Amendment, the abolitionist congressman from Ohio who prosecuted Lincoln’s assassins, REAFFIRMED the definition known to the framers by saying this:

commenting on Section 1992 said it means “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))”

SCOTUS, in an 1887 case cites Vattel a number of times and reitterates that his work was translated into English in 1760:
“Vattel in his Law of Nations, which was first printed at Neuchatel in 1758, and was translated into English and published in England in 1760” U S v. ARJONA, 120 U.S. 479 (1887)

It’s interesting to note that (non binding) Senate Resolution 511, which attempted to proclaim that Sen. John McCain was a “Natural Born Citizen” because he was born to citizen parentS, even they referenced the (repealed) Naturalization Act of 1790: “Whereas such limitations would be inconsistent with the purpose and intent of the `natural born Citizen’ clause of the Constitution of the United States, as evidenced by the First Congress’s own statute defining the term `natural born Citizen’”.
Obama, himself, was a signatory of that resolution knowing full well (no doubt) the requirement has always been about 2 citizen parents.

The point is, with the exception of the repealed Act of 1790 which tried to EXTEND the definition, the meaning of the term “Natural Born Citizen” has ALWAYS been about being born within the sovereign territory or jurisdiction of the U.S. to 2 citizen parents (& therefore parents who do NOT owe allegiance to another, foreign, country).

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Supreme Court of the United States and Obama Eligibility Lawsuit Appeals:
Berg v Obama: Denied
Craig v US: Denied
Donofrio v Wells: Denied
Herbert v Obama: Denied
Lightfoot v Bowen: Denied
Schneller v Cortes: Denied
Wrotnowski v. Bysiewicz: Denied

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The only court to actually issue a ruling on Obama’s eligibility under Article 2, Section 1:
“Based upon the language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 4 and the guidance provided by [the Supreme Court of the United States in their 1898 decision in the case of U.S. v.] Wong Kim Ark, we conclude that persons born within the borders of the United States are “natural born Citizens” for Article II, Section 1 purposes, regardless of the citizenship of their parents. Just as a person “born within the British dominions [was] a natural-born British subject” at the time of the framing of the U.S. Constitution, so too were those “born in the allegiance of the United States natural-born citizens.”—Indiana Court of Appeals, “Ankeny et. al. v The Governor of Indiana, Mitch Daniels,” Nov. 12, 2009
The appeal of the decision of the Indiana Court of Appeals was rejected for a hearing by the Indiana Supreme Court. The case has not been appealed to the US Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court of the United States.

[omegadawn]

A few facts to consider:
Fukino’s orginal statement(2008) was that obama’s birth was registered in Hawaii. She admitted that the ‘short form’ registeration form did not certify place of birth. She has now ‘altered ‘ her original statements. The Hawaiian AG has now disavowed any connection to her statements. Wonder why?

So far every case questioning obama’s birth status has been denied on ‘standing’ that is only certain people have the right to question the obama’s egilibity ( U.S.Attorney General, Congress)NONE of the cases have been denied on the evidence.

So ,what is the ‘evidence that the courts refuse to accept:

Obama refuses to release a CERTIFIED CERTIFICATE OF BIRTH
Obama is NOT listed on the birth records of any Hawaiian hospital.
There is no record of obama ever receiving a certificate of birth.
Article 2 of the U.S. Constitution states that the President must be a Natural Born citizen.
U.S. Congress: Children of citizens shall be Natural Born.
U.S. Supreme Court: Children whos’s parents are citizens are Natural born.
Supreme court: case of Wong KIm Ark, born to PARENTS who did not have full and complete allegiance to the U.S. ( legal immigrants) are Native born NOT Natural born.
Supreme court: case of U.S. vs Eng, Eng was found to be a Natural Born citizen because at the time of her birth BOTH parents were U.S. citizens ( even though later one parent returned to Sweden)

No court has disagreed with me , because the courts are refusing to hear the case. There is NO question that obama IS NOT a Natural Born citizen and thus NOT the PResident of the U.S.

p.s. fukino can’t ‘declare’ obama a natural born citizen and override the U.S. Constitution and the Supreme Court.

[rxsid]

"The only court to actually issue a ruling on Obama’s eligibility under Article 2, Section 1:
“Based upon the language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 4 and the guidance provided by [the Supreme Court of the United States in their 1898 decision in the case of U.S. v.] Wong Kim Ark, we conclude that persons born within the borders of the United States are “natural born Citizens” for Article II, Section 1 purposes, regardless of the citizenship of their parents. Just as a person “born within the British dominions [was] a natural-born British subject” at the time of the framing of the U.S. Constitution, so too were those “born in the allegiance of the United States natural-born citizens.”—Indiana Court of Appeals, “Ankeny et. al. v The Governor of Indiana, Mitch Daniels,” Nov. 12, 2009
The appeal of the decision of the Indiana Court of Appeals was rejected for a hearing by the Indiana Supreme Court. The case has not been appealed to the US Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court of the United States. "

That state of Indiana case? LMAO! No, seriously. LMAO!!

Based upon the language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 4 and the guidance provided by Wong Kim Ark we conclude that persons born within the borders of the United States are “natural born Citizens” for Article II, Section 1 purposes, regardless of the citizenship of their parents

WOW! OK. Let's have a look at this amazing case from a state court in Indiana...

1. What does the "language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 4" say?

Here's what it says:

The Congress may determine the time of choosing the electors, and the day on which they shall give their votes; which day shall be the same throughout the United States.

Do tell, WTF does that have to do with the NBC requirement for POTUS which is found in Clause 5? LOL!

2. Regarding this: "the guidance provided by Wong Kim Ark", the state court of Indiana had stated this in the previous paragraph:

The Court held that Mr. Wong Kim Ark was a citizen [Edit: "citizen", but NOT a "natural born citizen"] of the United States “at the time of his birth.” 14

What does footnote 14 say?

We note the fact that the Court in Wong Kim Ark did not actually pronounce the plaintiff a “natural born Citizen” using the Constitution's Article II language is immaterial.

LMAO! It's "immaterial" according to this ridiculous state court ruling. Haha. Sure it's immaterial. LOL!

So, this brilliant "defining" decision by the state court in Indiana stated the wrong Constitutional clause from where the actual requirement comes from AND they say they base their decision on WKA which found that a child born in country to non citizen parents was a "citizen" (they did NOT find him NBC)...and they admit it...yet they someone find Barry NBC?

LMAO. No...seriously, LMAO!

It's worthless. It's OBVIOUSLY flawed. Period. Forget the fact that it is a state of Indiana decision and not from a federal court nor SCOTUS.

[jamese777]

I’m glad to see that rxsid is LMAO! Laughter is good for the soul but humor doesn’t tend to win court judgements unfortunately!

I guess grinning rxsid isn’t aware of what most 8th grade Civics class students know...US presidential elections are decided on electoral votes from the 50 STATES and the District of Columbia. If the STATE of Indiana had invalidated Obama’s Electoral College votes, it is highly likely that every other state in the Union would have done the same thing that was attempted in Indiana.

EVERY Obama eligibility lawsuit that has found its way up to the Supreme Court of the United States BEGAN as a state level lawsuit.

But then again, “ignorance is bliss!”

[Seizethecarp]

“Just as a person “born within the British dominions [was] a natural-born British subject” at the time of the framing of the U.S. Constitution, so too were those “born in the allegiance of the United States natural-born citizens.”—Indiana Court of Appeals, “Ankeny et. al. v The Governor of Indiana, Mitch Daniels,” Nov. 12, 2009”

The Ankeny decision is erroneous on its face and is not precedent in any federal court, especially regarding the definition of NBC.

[rxsid]

Excellent. I’m glad your glad I’m LMAO. Thanks for the providing the fodder at which I can LMAO. It’s nice to be entertained by the comical every now and then.

[jamese777]

Excellent. I’m glad your glad I’m LMAO. Thanks for the providing the fodder at which I can LMAO. It’s nice to be entertained by the comical every now and then.

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I’m delighted that I could bring a bit of joy to your day.

[Red Steel]

To repeat it back to you: It's worthless. It's OBVIOUSLY flawed. Period. Forget the fact that it is a state of Indiana decision and not from a federal court nor SCOTUS.

It's worthless like your posts.

[teletech]

Its best that in 2012 , during the election, he is outed as a fraud, by the people, and sent packing by the people.

At the rate Obama is taking our country apart, we don't have until 2012.