“You just dismissed criticism of Jews by pointing out that “there are whack jobs in every group” and then you turn around and say that Jewish fear of American Fundamentalist Protestants is “justified?” Physician, heal thyself!”
I didn’t dismiss criticism of Jews - there are Jewish whack jobs too. I consider Jewish liberals to be whack jobs. You don’t think the fear is “justified”? That’s interesting.
“For most of chr*stian history, Fundamentalist Protestantism did not exist (ask any Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox chr*stian; they’ll be happy to explain it to you). For roughly 1700 years every pogrom, every massacre, every outrage perpetrated by chr*stians against Jews was perpetrated by NON-Fundamentalist chr*stians. Again, any EO or RC will happily explain how alienated Protestant Fundamentalism is from true historical chr*stianity.”
I don’t believe I specified a historical time period and all of the videos I linked are from the present or 20th century. How does that mesh with your attempt to slough it off onto the Catholics? I am aware of the Protestant Reformation, but thanks for the insult.
“You’re tired of people who use Jews as scapegoats? Well guess what—I’m sick and tired of people who use a religion that didn’t even exist as a scapegoat for atrocities committed before it even existed.”
Again, I do not believe I referred to any atrocities committed prior to the last 300 years. Do I understand you correctly that you consider Protestant Evangelical Christianity to be a separate (and comparatively new) religion as opposed to Catholicism? I’m sorry, I always understand them both to be Christian.
“Are there anti-Semitic Fundamentalist chr*stians? You bet there are. But they are a miniscule percentage of “whack jobs.” The vast majority of Fundamentalist Protestants have never even heard of Jeff Rense or Tex Marrs (mach shemam!). Are there really Jews out there who sincerely believe that this country is full of people whose reading of Genesis and Joshua has made them into monsters who are just rarin’ to unleash a second Holocaust? That is not only prejudice, it is stupid prejudice.”
Well as Jeff Foxworthy might say, they cannot seem to keep the most ignorant among them off of the television set. I’m sure that you are aware that modern media does not always portray an accurate picture of any group of people. The TEA Party members would be a good example of that distortion. I don’t speak for every Jew. If you think that I spoke out of prejudice - you are wrong. Every single day there are posts about Israel on this forum, and every single day people post about how the Jews put Obama in the WH. I’m addressing those attitudes and trying to explain why so many Jews are afraid of fundamentalist Christians. I find it interesting that you are so defensive about the subject.
“Did you know that I used to be a Fundamentalist chr*stian? Do you honestly think I was attracted to Noachism because I was an ultra-modern sophisticate who disdained the Bible? I’m sorry. Not only to liberals not become Noachides, for the most part neither do non-Fundamentalist chr*stians.”
No, I did not know that you used to be a Fundamentalist Christian - I don’t know you at all. I don’t know about your attraction to anything - I don’t know you.
“The reason the vast majority of American Jews (who are liberal and non-Orthodox) are allergic to American Fundamentalist Protestants is that those Fundamentalist Protestants remind them that their own ancestors were rustic Theocratic warrior-shepherds with names like “Jedidiah,” “Caleb,” and “Jethro.” Liberal Jews like to think that Jewish history consists of nothing but Nobel Physics Prizes and Weimar Republic intellectuals. What modern Jewish liberal isn’t ashamed of Yehoshu`a Bin Nun and Likkud Ha’Aretz? It is for this reason that people like Abe Foxman actually try to make anti-Semites of Fundamentalist chr*stians, so they can tell themselves that their ancestors were as liberal as they themselves are.”
Just wow - I’ll let your attitude speak for itself - and it does so quite clearly.
“I have lived my entire life among Fundamentalist chr*stians. My sister is a Southern Baptist and she has never so much as even tried to convert me (she’s probably less uncomfortable with my being a Noachide than she was with my being Roman Catholic for six years!). The vast majority of American Fundamentalist Protestants are the nicest, most decent, and most pro-Jewish people you could ever hope to meet.”
I do not believe that I ever accused ALL Fundamentalist Christians of doing or saying anything. I don’t have a problem with you or anyone else pursuing whatever spiritual path you choose - as long as your spiritual path doesn’t require murder and mayhem - it is fine with me. I think you read what I wrote in a much harsher tone than I intended.
“And by the way—they’re probably the only segment of the American population that knows about Judaea!”
Take a deep breath - your “righteous indignation” has gotten the best of you. Eyes - see, Ears - hear....
That's good to know.
You don’t think the fear is “justified”? That’s interesting.
Yes, it is unjustified. The number of Fundamentalist Protestants who are actually potentially dangerous to Jews in the United States is miniscule. Remember when Foxman predicted pogroms throughout the USA if (Catholic) Mel Gibson's film were released? Well, there weren't any. And so far as I know he has never apologized.
Would you like to know the first time I ever heard "the Jews" of killing Chr*st?" It sure weren't from any preacher, Joab! It was in an anti-prejudice movie on the CBS Children's Film Festival (it was placed in the mouth of a bigoted youngster in order to make the point that bigotry was bad). Now as I grew up I realized something very interesting: the "new testament" is indeed very, very anti-Semitic, and it does blame "the Jews" for killing J*sus. Yet Fundamentalist Protestants, who are supposed to live and breathe the "new testament," never say this, because even though the charge is woven throughout the "nt" it contradicts the Word of G-d in the Hebrew Bible. Pretty amazing, don't you think?
BTW, if your definition of "danger" is finding a "gospel tract" under your windshield wiper or hanging on your doorknob, you don't know what "danger" is. I'll bet the Jews of the Middle Ages would have gladly traded all they went through for finding an occasional tract.
I don’t believe I specified a historical time period and all of the videos I linked are from the present or 20th century. How does that mesh with your attempt to slough it off onto the Catholics? I am aware of the Protestant Reformation, but thanks for the insult.
You did indeed specify a time period by referring exclusively to whack jobs among Fundamentalist Protestants and ignoring the previous fifteen hundred years. And for your information, I have been Catholic too. Believe me, Catholicism isn't pro-Jewish at all, and what passes for "philo-Semitism" in it is nothing more than kum-ba-ya liberal ecumenicism. Of course I realize you can't possibly know the things I do from these personal experiences with both religions, but I am sorry my experience so violates your preconceptions. It must come from living in the big city with all those Catholics. But do you really believe rural America is populated by murderous bigots?
Again, I do not believe I referred to any atrocities committed prior to the last 300 years.
Which is precisely the problem. You completely bypassed fifteen hundred years of atrocities to exclusively single out anti-Semites among Fundamentalist Protestants.
Do I understand you correctly that you consider Protestant Evangelical Christianity to be a separate (and comparatively new) religion as opposed to Catholicism?
You do. That is also their position.
I’m sorry, I always understand them both to be Christian.
And what in sam hill does the word "chr*stian" mean? It is applied/claimed equally by Southern Baptists, Armenian Apostolics, J-- Witnesses, mormons, unitarian-universalists, "Oneness Pentecostals," and liberal United Methodists. It is also claimed by radical "palestinians" and radical, third world oriented churches like Jeremiah Wright's. Does that sound like a single religion to you? Please. It is a plethora of religions that shares nothing but a vocabulary--a vocabulary in which the words mean radically different things from one "denomination" to the other. Haven't you noticed how the Notzerim hate each other? Not only are they divided theologically, they are divided and antagonistic to one another ethnically (are there any two things more different than Fundamentalist Protestant whites and Fundamentalist Protestant Blacks?). That's what happens when you take G-d out of Heaven and (chas vechalilah!) make a human being out of him. He becomes not only a human, but a human of your own ethnicity, and your ethnicity becomes the special elect "holy nation" (chr*stian America, chr*stian Armenia, Catholic Spain, Solomonic Ethiopia, etc.). It's the world's most henotheistic "religion" in world history.
Well as Jeff Foxworthy might say, they cannot seem to keep the most ignorant among them off of the television set. I’m sure that you are aware that modern media does not always portray an accurate picture of any group of people. The TEA Party members would be a good example of that distortion.
The evangelicals one finds on television are pro-Jewish and pro-Israel, which anti-Semites and liberal chr*stians absolutely can't stand. Had you rather TV were full of those other kinds of chr*stians? (Most "evangelicals" on TV are also Pentecostals,and there is almost no classical Reformation Protestant presence on TV.)
I don’t speak for every Jew. If you think that I spoke out of prejudice - you are wrong.
I'm certainly glad to hear that!
Every single day there are posts about Israel on this forum, and every single day people post about how the Jews put Obama in the WH.
Do you realize that if Roman Catholics actually voted in conformity with their theology we wouldn't be in this mess today at all? It is certainly childish to say that Jews "put" Obama in the White House. Perhaps I am misreading, but most of the childish fulminations I read here don't blame Obama on the Jews but merely express frustration at how most American Jews are so insanely loyal to the Democrat party. If every Jew in America became a Republican tomorrow, that probably wouldn't do much about the vote (since the Jewish population is so much smaller than so many other groups). But it is still frustrating to see Jewish loyalty to an allegedly "great party" which is supposedly so "superior" to the Republicans when people like myself (the descendant of Southerners who fought for the Union) know what the Democrat party really is. If the Democrat party is so great, why was it the party of slavery and white supremacy for so long?
I’m addressing those attitudes and trying to explain why so many Jews are afraid of fundamentalist Christians.
What exactly is it that so many Jews are afraid of? That these "awful people" are going to preach to them? Hand them a tract? Shoot them? Cook and eat their children? If they're so awful, why am I down here in their very midst and wouldn't want to live anywhere else?
I find it interesting that you are so defensive about the subject.
Not interesting at all. One can choose one's religion, but one can't choose one's ethnoculture. And unless my people turn out to be the accursed `Amaleq, they are due massive apologies from every other population group in this country. I am tired of seeing them used as scapegoats for every evil in existence, tired of seeing them the only safe ethno-cultural group to lampoon and hate in an otherwise "non-judgmental" culture. If you can understand the group identity of Irish and Italians, why is "redneck" identity so sinister? It's the same thing.
You know . . . of my four grandparents I only knew one, who died in 1966. The others died in 1957, 1931, and 1919. I don't know anything about them. If I am not qualified to sit in judgment on their moral character, why in blazes should anyone else be granted the right to do so?
No, I did not know that you used to be a Fundamentalist Christian - I don’t know you at all. I don’t know about your attraction to anything - I don’t know you.
You got that right. And you don't know the other thousands and thousands of decent people who live in the American Heartland and study the Book of Joshua either. You certainly have no right to invoke a few "identity" Jew-hating "whack jobs" as an excuse of explaining why the vast majority of them are so "scary."
Just wow - I’ll let your attitude speak for itself - and it does so quite clearly.
Right back 'atcha.
You know something? The people you appear to be so disdainful of (and forgive me if I am misjudging you) are the only group in chr*stendom who actually donate money to settle Jews in Israel. And these aren't well-to-do people by any stretch of the imagination. If you watch those awful evangelists on TV I'm sure you've seen at least one infomercial of Rabbi Eckstine soliciting money from Fundamentalist Protestants for this very purpose. And what do they get in return? They are labeled "anti-Semites," "dangerous," . . . I have even read the charge on this forum that the poor people who donate money to Rabbi Eckstine are ee-vil and intentionally settle Russian Nazis in Israel. Honestly, what kind of mentality does it take to make such a ridiculous charge???
But maybe . . . just maybe . . . all this Jewish hostility serves a positive purpose for the fate of those awful people. Since they insist on an (absolutely groundless belief in chr*stianity (based on nothing whatsoever other than reasoning in a circle) and absolutely refuse to even consider that chr*stianity might not be the "one true religion," perhaps their support of the Jewish People in the absence of the slightest bit of gratitude serves to build up their zekhut so that their stubborn henotheism won't be held against them.
I do not believe that I ever accused ALL Fundamentalist Christians of doing or saying anything. I don’t have a problem with you or anyone else pursuing whatever spiritual path you choose
You should have a problem with anyone who refuses to reject their false "gxds" and vanities and acknowledge HaShem, the True G-d, and the one and only objective historical Revelation of that G-d at Sinai. RaMBa"M writes that Moses was enjoined to "compel" the nations of the world to accept the Seven Noachide Laws--something which Mashiach HaMelekh will certainly do. The Seven Noachide Laws (which preclude all man-created religions) are obligatory upon all non-Jewish mankind. And by the way, the "righteous of the nations" means observant Noachides, not "all good people regardless of their religious beliefs" as so many incorrectly believe. The reason there are non-Jews who hate and kill Jews is that they do not acknowledge the Jewish G-d and the Torah. All the secular "tolerance" programs and all the Holocaust education in the world will not eradicate anti-Semitism. Only the conversion of the entire non-Jewish world to Noachism will end anti-Semitism. Oh, and before you feel it necessary to remind me that "Jews are not missionary," that merely means Jews do not actively recruit converts to Judaism. It is missionary with regard to turning non-Jews into observant Noachides--a fact that has nearly been forgotten because Jews have lived so long among societies that would have exterminated them for doing this.
- as long as your spiritual path doesn’t require murder and mayhem - it is fine with me.
What is "murder and mayhem?" Was it "murder and mayhem" to exterminate the Seven Nations of Canaan, as commanded by G-d? (Yehoshu`a didn't build a "museum of tolerance" when he conquered the Land!) Or what about exterminating `Amaleq (which Mashiach is going to accomplish)? Is that murder and mayhem? Or how about executing people for capital crimes of idol worship? Isn't that a violation of the First Amendment?
You know, the ancient Jews of the TaNa"KH seem to me an awful lot like "those awful rednecks!"
I think you read what I wrote in a much harsher tone than I intended.
I sincerely hope so.
One final word before signing off. You're offended by cranks who attack Jews for continuing to vote Democrat no matter what? You should have seen FR eleven years ago when I first joined. Up until 9/11 this place was crawling with honest-to-goodness Nazis, and I'm sure there's still a few of them slithering around.
PS: Yeah, I know . . . I say "you know" a lot!