Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Goldman-deal gamblers knew the score. One side was bound to lose. Why is the SEC prosecuting?
MSN Money ^ | 04/26/2010 | Bill Fleckenstein

Posted on 04/26/2010 6:27:20 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

The players on both sides of the trade that the SEC has targeted knew the risks and knew one side was bound to lose. It's far from the worst sin of this mess.

Goldman Sachs. John Paulson. Those are hot-button words that have dominated business news lately, with many of the reports biased toward a black-and-white supposition: guilty.

This column, however, wouldn't live up to its name if it didn't take a contrarian view. Not surprisingly, I'm going to discuss the Goldman/Paulson flap from a slightly different perspective.

What I believe may have happened -- at worst -- is that Paulson, a hedge fund manager, identified various bits of mortgage flotsam he wanted to short, betting they would go down. Then he might've gone to Goldman Sachs (GS, news, msgs) and asked something like, "Hey, would you put a basket of this stuff together?"

It seems to me that Paulson did nothing wrong. (I myself constructed a few "put baskets" of stocks I hated back in the late 1990s. At that time, the player on the other side of my trade was a brokerage firm.)

If that's what occurred, Goldman probably didn't want to take the other side of that trade. So, it would've gone out and found some suckers -- I mean, buyers. But what is most important to understand is this:

A buyer-beware market

This is not a mom-and-pop market of innocents. This is a sophisticated, buyer-beware "upstairs" market. All participants have ISDA (International Swaps and Derivatives Association) agreements -- and the mountains of supporting data that go with it. Nobody unsophisticated operates in this derivatives market. Furthermore, every participant knows there is a short-seller on the other side of every purchase.

(Excerpt) Read more at articles.moneycentral.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: goldmansachs; johnpaulson; sec
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-36 next last

1 posted on 04/26/2010 6:27:21 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

One argument the SEC has been making is that Goldman should have disclosed that John Paulson was somehow involved in the selection of securities in the Abacus collateralized debt obligations.

What the SEC fails to mention is that a counter-party to Paulson — ACA has the final say in what comprised the portfolio to be traded.

Even if Paulson had complete discretion over the selection, I doubt the buyers would have cared. His reputation was not what it is now, after making a fortune shorting subprime, so his opinion on any given security was nothing special. And remember, few people believed the bears back then when they said housing was in trouble.

In fact, some very smart people were bullish on the subprime/Alt-A sector. For example: David Einhorn, who later predicted the collapse of Lehman Brothers, was the largest shareholder of now-collapsed lender New Century Financial — his fund owned more than 10% of the company — and he was also a director.


2 posted on 04/26/2010 6:30:05 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Toddsterpatriot; Mase; expat_panama

Fleckenstein ping.


3 posted on 04/26/2010 6:32:01 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

I don’t understand why so many want to demonize GS for being on both sides of trades - it’s what traders do.

The GS error - from others as well - was setting up derivatives that were leveraged out at over a 100:1. This was irresponsible on the part of broker mgnt. but all the regulatory agencies just skipped over this too. I don’t think they had a clue what they were looking at - worse didn’t care.


4 posted on 04/26/2010 6:41:29 AM PDT by bossmechanic (If all else fails, hit it with a hammer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Risk taking in the pursuit of profit, is now a criminal activity in our present Obama world.
5 posted on 04/26/2010 6:45:00 AM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (Chairman Mao was a community organizer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bossmechanic
I don’t understand why so many want to demonize GS for being on both sides of trades - it’s what traders do.

Congress can't demonize the true culprits, because it will get the finger pointed right back. Fleckenstein touches on it in his column: we probably should go after FASB and the rating agencies for taking their eyes off the ball (or in the ratings agencies' case--dropping it).

6 posted on 04/26/2010 6:47:54 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: bossmechanic

At the same time there is e-mail evidence that was released over the weekend that shows how GS helped WAMU and it’s sub-prime tool write enough liar loans that resulted in the biggest bank failure in US history, while at the same time Goldman was betting heavily that WAMU would fail, and when it did Goldman was the only one left holding any money.

That may not be illegal, but it sure as hell isn’t ethical, especially in light of what came afterwards. It seems to me that Goldman and others like them are operating “legally” because they created new “products” (like derivatives) that were not covered in the existing laws, rules and regulations; ergo they must be “legal”.

Goldman Sachs has their fingers in every single dirty trick and shady deal that we hear about. If any of us tried these kinds of tricks with our businesses, we would never survive a Sarbanes-Oxley audit.

Of course it really helps GS get away with whatever they want if the SEC investigators who are supposed to be on watch, are online watching porn instead...


7 posted on 04/26/2010 6:51:31 AM PDT by Bean Counter (My name is Obammymandius, King of kings: look upon my works ye mighty, and despair...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Bean Counter

Who is watching the watchers?


8 posted on 04/26/2010 6:52:30 AM PDT by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Bean Counter
At the same time there is e-mail evidence that was released over the weekend that shows how GS helped WAMU and it’s sub-prime tool write enough liar loans that resulted in the biggest bank failure in US history, while at the same time Goldman was betting heavily that WAMU would fail, and when it did Goldman was the only one left holding any money.

That may not be illegal, but it sure as hell isn’t ethical, especially in light of what came afterwards


So, here's the question --- should what is considered unethical now be made illegal ?
9 posted on 04/26/2010 6:54:30 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Bean Counter
Of course it really helps GS get away with whatever they want if the SEC investigators who are supposed to be on watch, are online watching porn instead...

Or ex-Goldman guys, working for other ex-Goldman guys, going all the way back to Bob Rubin (maybe before), and stretching out into the future as far as Chelsea Clinton's Goldman-executive boyfriend.

10 posted on 04/26/2010 7:04:05 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
So, here's the question --- should what is considered unethical now be made illegal ?

There is also the question of "perfect knowledge", and whether anyone trading on the basic of knowledge so good is really investing -- or just harvesting.

11 posted on 04/26/2010 7:05:51 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

I don’t know. I’m not an attorney or an SEC investigator, and I lack the depth of knowledge to offer any specific or meaningful fixes.

I do know that I could not get away with these kinds of financial dealings and still be able to look myself in the mirror.


12 posted on 04/26/2010 7:27:15 AM PDT by Bean Counter (My name is Obammymandius, King of kings: look upon my works ye mighty, and despair...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Derivatives are easy to show by example:
A: "I betcha the market's going up."
B: "I betcha it's going down."
A: "How much you wanna bet?"

Now the left is SURPRISED someone lost?

13 posted on 04/26/2010 7:36:24 AM PDT by norwaypinesavage (Galileo: In science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of one individual)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator

Berny Madoff had that answer.


14 posted on 04/26/2010 7:39:00 AM PDT by Vaduz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Why is the SEC prosecuting?

Because this is the little sideshow investigation - cooked up jointly by Goldman and their staff in the Administration - to keep the public's eye off the big stuff.

15 posted on 04/26/2010 7:40:41 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ( "The right to offend is far more important than any right not to be offended." - Rowan Atkinson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Jeeves
cooked up jointly by Goldman and their staff in the Administration - to keep the public's eye off the big stuff.

Now you've got our curiosity and interest piqued --- What could this big stuff be ?? (talk about conspiracy theories)
16 posted on 04/26/2010 7:49:46 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: norwaypinesavage

If I were to explain Derivatives to a fifth grader, your example IS the one I will be using. It’s simple, yet truthful.


17 posted on 04/26/2010 7:51:45 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

The big stuff is the unregulated CDS and CMBS markets and how every one of these institutions sold toxic garbage with a AAA slapped on it to the entire world. By holding this little sideshow, they are going to try to pretend that
“the problem has been addressed”. So the big question about when Goldman, JP Morgan, and others are going to disgorge billions in fraudulently obtained revenues won’t come up.


18 posted on 04/26/2010 7:59:25 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ( "The right to offend is far more important than any right not to be offended." - Rowan Atkinson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Jeeves
The big stuff is the unregulated CDS and CMBS markets and how every one of these institutions sold toxic garbage with a AAA slapped on it to the entire world.

I was actually eyeing the big stuff that Obama and Dodd totally left UNMENTIONED. These are --- Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the HUD and the Community Reinvestment Act.

These were ALL major players in causing the housing and subprime mess. Yet, here we are, still subsidizing and enforcing them to the tune of hundreds of billions.
19 posted on 04/26/2010 8:05:11 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
the hardest thing in the world to do was short the housing market in a big way, using the very securities that would be most affected. Paulson couldn't have done it without an investment bank (those securities weren't exchange traded) to bring the two parties together.

now, as long as the counterparties had their lawyers read the deals -- and all such deals are nothing more nor less than contracts -- then caveat emptor.

20 posted on 04/26/2010 10:03:03 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-36 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson