Vattel Cited: Records of the Federal Convention1787 (Natural Born Citizen)

The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 [Farrand's Records, Volume 3] ^ | 1911 | Max Farrand

[bushpilot1]

Obama's supporters state there is no record the Founders used Vattel.

The second page shows the addition natural born citizen in 1787, the third page references Vattel.

[brityank]

Links for all Vattel cites I can find there:

Item Titles		Collection Titles
1.	Letters of Delegates to Congress: Volume: 3 January 1, 1776 - May 15, 1776 --Benjamin Franklin to James Bowdoin	Century of Lawmaking
2.	Elliot's Debates --Wednesday, June 27.	Century of Lawmaking
3.	Farrand's Records --MADISON Wednesday June 27. in Convention	Century of Lawmaking
4.	Letters of Delegates to Congress: Volume 22 November 1, 1784 - November 6, 1785 --Elbridge Gerry to Timothy Pickering	Century of Lawmaking
5.	Letters of Delegates to Congress: Volume 8 September 19, 1777 - January 31, 1778 --Daniel Roberdeau to Timothy Matlack	Century of Lawmaking
6.	Letters of Delegates to Congress: Volume 8 September 19, 1777 - January 31, 1778 --Elbridge Gerry to Thomas Wharton	Century of Lawmaking
7.	Farrand's Records --KING Wednesday 27. June5	Century of Lawmaking
8.	Farrand's Records --YATES Wednesday, June 27th, 1787.	Century of Lawmaking
9.	Elliot's Debates --Wednesday, June 27, 1787.	Century of Lawmaking
10.	Letters of Delegates to Congress: Volume 2 September 1775 - December 1775 --Richard Smith's Diary	Century of Lawmaking
11.	Letters of Delegates to Congress: Volume 8 September 19, 1777 - January 31, 1778 --James Lovell to John Adams	Century of Lawmaking
12.	The Revolutionary Diplomatic Correspondence --Franklin to Dumas.*	Century of Lawmaking
13.	Senate Journal --MONDAY, MARCH 10, 1794.	Century of Lawmaking

None have a direct notation for the Natural Born requirement. However, they all put to bed the lie that the Founders did not use - extensively - the precepts that Vattel stipulated in his The Law of Nations.

[edge919]

That’s an important point. There are some faithers and sand heads who claim the early English translations of Vattel didn’t use the term ‘natural born citizens’ but instead left it as ‘indigenes.’ But, knowing that indigenes are explained to naturally follow the conditions of their fathers, it can still be understood that the definition of natural born citizen used by the founders adhered to this concept as well, which still means Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States.

[bushpilot1]

there are a lots of appendix’s it will take time..to locate..

[bushpilot1]

we have to fully review the debates..we have scratched the surface of volume 1..the founders referenced 100’s of books they used at the the convention..we cannot limit our search to Vattel.

[chuckles]

If the Constitution doesn't cover NBC, then what would in 1961? We have had these laws for 230 years. What change are you citing? I see no changes made to the definition by statute since the founding. The 14th Amendment deals with slaves, not changing presidential requirements.

I know of no other change affecting NBC since Vattel. If the Founders adopted Vattel, then Vattel still stands.

[conservativegramma]

WOW - Well done sir! Can you get this to Mario Apuzzo???? Perhaps he can add it to the case.

[onyx]

I’m here. Thank you for the ping.
:)

[STARWISE]

~~Ping!

[Red Steel]

Cool.

[Mr Rogers]

OK, you got me - where did they say that they were using Vattel’s definition for Natural Born Citizen?

[bushpilot1]

0 Items containing the exact words definition natural born.
0 Items containing the phrase definition natural born.
0 Items containing the words definition natural born near each other.
11 Items containing all of the words: definition natural born, but not near each other.
89 Items containing one or more of the words: definition natural born

[bushpilot1]

busy..don’t disturb.

[bushpilot1]

The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution [Elliot’s Debates)

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwed.html

[Red Steel]

OK, you got me - where did they say that they were using Vattel’s definition for Natural Born Citizen?

Where does it say that they used anything else? Here's a clue. You won't find it anywhere.

[conservativegramma]

Correction on getting this to Mario Apuzzo, can we get this to Lt. Col. Lakin for HIS Case?????? Anybody have an e-mail or anything????

[bushpilot1]

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwed.html pls search

[Mr Rogers]

There were multiple definitions floating around at the time. Not everyone thought it required 2 citizen parents.

So unless there is a record stating they used Vattel’s definition, it is a question - one that many, now including 50 states & Congress - have answered as ‘being born in the US’.

[STARWISE]

This list apparently contains references to de Vattel
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query

Example:

Letters of Delegates to Congress: Volume 8 September 19, 1777 - January 31, 1778
Elbridge Gerry to Thomas Wharton

Dear Sir York in Pennsylvania Novr 8. 1777 The following Books are much wanted by some Gentlemen of Congress, & are not to be procured in this Place; if they are to be found in the Pennsylvania Library, which We are informed is removed by Order of your Excellency to Lancaster, I shall be much obliged to You for the Loan thereof being with respect your Excellency’s very huml sert,(1) E Gerry

Vattell’s Law of Nations
Grotius
Puffendorf (2)

RC (PHi). Addressed: “His Excellency Thomas Wharton Esqr. Lancaster.”

1 In his November 11 response Wharton informed Gerry that “the Library you Speak of was not removed, it still remains in the City for the edification of Tories.”

Wharton added that there was a library in Lancaster that might be willing to lend books to members of Congress. Gerry Papers, DLC.

Before Wharton responded, Daniel Roberdeau sent a request for the same works to Wharton on November 10. “A Committee of Congress have occasion of the under mentioned Law Books,” Roberdeau explained, “which one of them sais were in the Library belonging to the State in Philada. Therefore I am desired to apply to you for the immediate Loan of them, and that they may be sent by express, if a good Opportunity does not very soon offer. If the books of the State were not brought to Lancaster you are requested to borrow these books of some Gentleman there and forward them.” Continental Congress Miscellany, DLC; and Pa. Archives, 1st ser. 5:757.

2 Emmerich de Vattel, The Law of Nations or Principles of the Law of Nature Applied to the Conduct and Affairs of Nations and Sovereignty; Hugo Grotius, On the Law of War and Peace; and Samuel Pufendorf, of the Law of Nature and Nations.

Page 243

NOVEMBER 8, 1777

http://tinyurl.com/25cferl

[freethinker_for_freedom]

“Obama admits his father was Kenyan. Therefore, he’s not a natural born citizen.”

I still don’t understand this argument. I was born in Oklahoma, but my father was French. Do I need to pack my bags and head for Paris?

[bushpilot1]

* The Charters of Freedom: The Bill of Rights, National Archives and Records Administration

* The Charters of Freedom: The Declaration of Independence, National Archives and Records Administration

* The Charters of Freedom: The Constitution of the United States, National Archives and Records Administration

* The Constitution of the United States of America, Analysis and Interpretation, GPO Access

wonder what the heck is GPO access??