Posted on 04/01/2010 10:02:27 PM PDT by neverdem
Just like with Joseph and his brothers, the world may wish evil on the RCC for its own nefarious purposes, but the Lord means for this convicting light to be good.
My enemy's enemy is not always my friend.
If it took Obama's vile HC to facilitate the truth to come out about the papacy, so be it.
However a more realistic way to look at this situation is that much of the media has been complicit in keeping a lid on this scandal for decades.
But watch and see. This, too, will evaporate. And very little will change.
This is nothing new. Those who wish to live a godly life will face persecution. Christians and (true)Christianity has always faced attacks.
That being said, Christians also are fully capable of self inflicted wounds. We can't feel sorry for ourselves when the world attacks us for when we have evil in our mist. We are told in the scriptures that we are to set an example and be set apart.
Your pity is misplaced.
Thank you.
In this era, there will be MORE change . . .
from worse to worse.
Evil is getting darker and darker and more and more wide spread.
Thankfully, God will raise up a Standard against it.
INDEED.
Nailed it.
Exactly. The RCC would prefer to blame the victims than look for the malignancy within.
The core of the problem cannot be fixed -- the RCC believes its priestcraft to be "another Christ" - an "alter Christus."
Thus, this special class of humanity is "entitled" to whatever it desires.
And it's ludicrous to believe the Roman Catholic church is "conservative." Left or right, the RCC is grounded in the top-down hierarchy of Roman Catholic social justice theory which is the antithesis of what founded this country and has sustained it for 200 years -- individual initiative and Scripture as the final authority for men's conscience.
Amen. If we don’t see the opposition clearly, we’re more likely to succumb to its error.
Far too true in to many areas on too many issues for too many individuals.
Sigh.
Policy has trumped principle, The interests of the hierarchy are thus equated precisely with God’s interests.
So what’s a few children placed in the hands of homosexuals if a “greater good” is served?
I disagree on biblical grounds. Jesus said that the enemy would sow tares amidst the wheat AND that removing them will be a job completed at the end times.
I am an ordained Methodist elder with decades of experience in that hierarchy as well as the US Army hierarchy. I know organizational systems as well as the next guy, I think.
It has taught me that those who practice their Christianity in a non-hierarchical denomination really have ZERO idea about the issues at hand. (Mind you, I think a "connected" Christianity (hierarchy) is the legitimate Biblical interpretation of Church structure.)
Likewise, I believe in the Church Invisible comprised of ALL true believers of all time. Every sincere believer in Christ, no matter the denomination or nation, is a brother or sister of mine.
So, allow me to repeat my position: Tares among wheat with churches having hierarchies that ALSO will have tares. Satan's purpose is obvious. He wishes to discredit, damage the wheat in any manner that he can.
In this argument, I will stand with my CONSERVATIVE Roman Catholic, pro-life brothers and sisters. In fact, in this argument, I am a CONSERVATIVE Roman Catholic.
The timing of these attacks on Catholicism is related to Catholicism's standing for life. It shows me the reason that darkness wants to discredit this field of wheat at this particular time. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood..."
Well, find this incredibly busy education worker and kick him out!
Some quick googling (so sue me google) comes up with recent numbers of 6.8 million teachers in the USA and 408,000 Catholic priests in the world. Project those numbers per capita and the teachers don't look quite so bad.
I've never heard that in all my years. You talking to seminary gays?
And it's ludicrous to believe the Roman Catholic church is "conservative." Left or right, the RCC is grounded in the top-down hierarchy of Roman Catholic social justice theory which is the antithesis of what founded this country and has sustained it for 200 years ....
The Church has been "conservative" in the same way that American conservatives have always been the 18th- and 19th-century "liberals". And yes, the Church has opposed several of the beliefs that underlie American political theory. They are quite conservative that way.
Hence the Monroe Doctrine, by which the young U.S. entered into a collaboration with Great Britain to frustrate the tripartite Hapsburg-Romanoff-papal alliance outlined in the secret codicils of the Treaty of Vienna, which pledged the Catholic (and Orthodox) powers which defeated Napoleon to oppose liberalism (Jeffersonianism) in the New World and help preserve Spain's godly New World Empire, for the good of men's souls. (As they saw it.)
Thanks for this post and also for your post #40.
Your decades of experience has profitted you well and have given you the gracious simplicity of wisdom.
If these are tares in the Church, then they are to be cast out. If they are Christians, then they are to be reprimanded. They are not suppose to be shuffled to another job somewhere. I thought it was with some irony that Justin Martyr talked about sexual immorality with children in the letter I referenced.
I would suggest there are many biblical examples of Christians-not tares-being lax in their behavior. A case in point is the Corinthians who seemed to excuse the behavior of a man committing sexual immorality with his father's wife. (I Cor 5) Paul was pretty upset Christians were arrogant about the matter rather than mournful. We are to be the light of the world, ambassadors for Christ, holy and blameless. We are not to ignore (and excuse) bad behavior within the church. We are to act upon it.
While I'm very familiar with hierarchies having been in a number of them myself, this is one of the reasons I don't believe the early church was structure under a hierarchical system. Hierarchical systems lend themselves early to corruption. When the hierarchy votes to recognize gays to marry or women to preach, what are you going to do? Wmfights has often brought up many excellent arguments why the early churches were individually run. It's our Baptist nature.
As far as the timing of these attacks, I'd say bring them on. Our God is mighty and fully capable of anything puny man can throw at us. But if it is God's will that we perish, then so be it. We will not bow down to their satanic visions. However, just like Joshua found out at Ai, we cannot go into battle if we have sin among our mist. Keep in mind that abortion in the church mirrors secular society. We need to repent and cleanse ourselves.
This is an excellent scripture, but you do recall that Paul was willing to make an attempt to redeem the individual in question. If I recall 2 Corinthians correctly, Paul's gambit paid off. The man repented.
Now, I think that the statistical data is irrefutable that there is so little success (none) in rehabbing certain varieties of sex offenders that it MUST become policy that they be totally removed from any position of authority or ministry within the church. There must be no return ever to such a position. If ordained, they must be stripped of their orders. Forever. They must have their bodies "turned over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh that their spirits may be saved in the Day of the Lord." And if some of them truly repent, then so much the better. But they must never, ever be restored to authority/ministry. Ever.
My denomination also has a very involved system with the "rights of defendants" identical to those in our US justice system. In short, it's virtually impossible to convict anyone of anything short of a video showing them in the act. This does carry protection of the individual in church matters a bit too far. We must not entertain accusations against elders on the testimony of one witness, but we also must allow reasonable accusations to see the light of day and receive a fair hearing.
It is just as important to protect the sheepfold as it is to protect members from false accusation.
“Paul’s gambit paid off. The man repented.”
I have thought often as I have read on this thread, and the many like it:
“Where evil aboundeth, grace aboundeth more.”
“Though your sins be as scarlet...”
I pray that heaven will be rejoicing more at the return of one back to God and that this will come about because of the prayers of 99 other righteous men.
Your ecumenicism is clouding your judgment, IMO. The "timing" of these accusations are a distant second to the preeminent question -- are these valid accusations or not?
these attacks on Catholicism
Attacks on Catholicism? We're not talking about criticizing an organization for impertinence or a lack of Biblical clarity. We're talking about sexual molestation of children that either did or did not occur. The only "attacks" here are those perpetrated on children by pederast priests.
What in the world are you talking about? No one is denying Roman Catholics the right to worship as they please. "In this argument" we're talking about pedophilia in the Roman Catholic church where the labels of conservative/liberal don't even enter into the discussion.
What's really happening is that the media has always been complicit in the decades-long cover-up of this pedophilia scandal, and now, for several reasons, the scandal is permitted to see the light of day. So the story gets signified. Now we're supposed to know about it.
But the story has always been there.
If that is the case then the Catholic Church is totally wrong in returning these pedeophile priests to even different positions. I'm sorry but I can't identify with this inexcusable behavior of the hierarcy of the Church. In my opinion, it is a poor reflection on the Church for this article to try to excuse the Church by saying society is just as bad.
We must not entertain accusations against elders on the testimony of one witness, but we also must allow reasonable accusations to see the light of day and receive a fair hearing.
While it is important we treat Christians "fairly", the Bible is also clear that we must be blameless before the world. If it happens that we suffer injustice then that is OK and Paul tells us that we should just accept it (1 Cor 6:7). At some point the books will be squared.
The Church/church of our Lord Jesus should not mirror society. Rather it should show to the world that it DOES have a different message and that God DOES changes lives if we confess our sins and ask the Lord Jesus to cleanse us. How can Christians possibly carry forth this true message when so many of us are running around living our lives just like everyone else? Christianity is the ONLY religion that promises that God WILL change our hearts if we let Him. But I sincerely doubt you'd find 50% of the Christians today working out the faith with "fear and trembling". We sure make things difficult for God. It's a wonder that anyone comes to Christ for forgiveness and healing.
Christians who want to sin should be sat in a corner until they ask God for forgiveness. Tares in the church who fail to bear fruit should be kicked out until they "bear the fruit of repentence".
The primary difference between society and the church, is that the church acknowledges they are sinners before God. When the church fails to acknowledge our sins and ask forgiveness, then there is no distinction.
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