Posted on 03/31/2010 1:04:23 PM PDT by topher
With cancer patients, they may be in such pain that they request more and more morphine, which result in reduced respirations.
At some point, the patient stops breathing because of toxic morphine levels.
I hope I’m never in a position to even consider having that kind of conversation
This is a common thing in the elderly sick patients. They are struggling to breathe, in pain, and a doc gives the maximum dose of morphine, with all knowing that it might just slow / stop the limbic brain. Happens ALL the time. It’s not the worst thing in the world, and no one is killing deliberately.
In terms of parents and minors, it’s tricky. You have a terminally ill child, in lots of pain, and you want to let the child be without pain. At some point you come close to the “how much is too much” question, and we are speaking of children who have vastly differing metabolisms NOT perfectly related to weight.
This is not something to fight because I’d rather allow families to receive the pain relief the children need. I do not want morphine to be strictly regulated to the point where someone’s child dies in agony. Sorry. I’d rather have the child’s pain determine the dose. Especially if multiple doctors agree that there is little hope left.
I imagine this is a common dilemna in a hospice with cancer patients. The staff must monitor the vital signs, so when respirations drop below a certain point, and the patient is conscious and in a great deal of pain, the family might put pressure to keep administering more and more pain medication.
Some nurses have felt guilty about this, as they have felt they have killed the patient...
The family should neve push such a button if the patient is unconscious, and the healthcare facility must warn family not to do this.
Agreed that it is an imperfect world. Mercy killing is still killing.
The line that is a thin one is the one where the patient is on the border of death, and just one more dose of pain medication pushes the patient over the line.
But I believe the article is addressing the issue of a terminally ill child, and requesting that the child be killed outright.
One of the first John Wayne movies addresses this (the movie Stagecoach). At the end of the movie, John Carradine is about to "shoot a woman" so the Indians do not get her. Just as he is about to shoot her, there is the sound of a Calvary bugle.
The point being is that cancer can go into remission.
I think it is very common is hospice, my FIL died from brain cancer and his last couple day were just a morphine induced coma and he finally passed. My friend just went through the same thing, it took her about 10 days to get to the morphine stage - kept her pain free and no seizures - after 2 days on solid morphine she passed.
There was NO reason for either of them to suffer, and neither staff or family at either Hospice inclined they wanted to “end it quickly” - but it was understood that the morphine would supress their breathing and they would just pass. Thank God they did and Thank God for the care they received.
Brain cancer sucks.
As a nurse I have seen a high dosage of Morphine ordered with the intent of killing .
I and others have refused to administer it..
What this report will lead to is a call to legalize it because it is already common practice
Oh, of course I am not supporting murdering a child!
I just wouldn’t like pressure on the medical community to restrain from palliative pain relief just because some monsters might kill their ill children deliberately.
I would not let someone die in agony begging for more pain meds.
Give them all they desire.
If the pain medication shortens their life by a few days then so be it.
So does liver cancer. I doubt if there are any “good cancers”. My hubby died just 2 months after being told he had this kind of cancer.
Anyone who works in medicine long enough knows the reality of it.
There are some patients who have suffered long and hard. Damned hard. Their suffering seems almost barbaric, and...they have had enough. In their heart, they know.
I recently had a friend, a young woman with terrible, terrible cancer who suffered horribly. Eventually, she said to one of her closest friends “I don’t want to go. I don’t want to. But I just can’t stay. I can’t stay anymore.”
She had fought long and courageously, and for her, she just couldn’t go on. She was a medical professional, loved and respected by everyone who knew her. I am not saying she succumbed in this fashion. I am describing her to illustrate the point that many suffering people come to. Some get there quickly. Some fight with an animal ferocity to live, but still get there. Some never get to that mindset.
Agh. Weeping as I write this.
But I have been in medicine long enough to know that giving people more morphine than is conducive to continued respiration is, in certain circumstances, an act of great compassion. It often happens without fanfare, with the full consent of all involved including the patient. They just cannot bear the pain any longer, their will to live simply reduced to a dry husk by the 24x7 struggle. The shell of desire to live sometimes remains, but when the patient looks inside, they see they have used all their resources and energy. They have nothing left to fight with, and it has always seemed to me to be a point in their lives when, they cannot deceive themselves any longer. They can deceive themselves about every other thing in their lives, their families, their friends, their dreams, their job, their aspirations and their accomplishments.
But there comes a time for many of them when they look inside, and that is one part of them that is bare, and they apparently cannot deceive themselves about it.
I have had people say to me variations on “Yes. I know where this is going. I know. But my family and friends haven’t got there yet, so I am going to be strong for them.”
I’ve met a good number of people who have made their peace when they get there and look into that empty shell. Not everyone, mind you. But many.
I am sorry for your loss. And you are correct. There ARE doctors who should NOT be practicing.
There is an old saying: “50% of the doctors graduate in the lower half of their class.”
That happened to my father. He was in horrific pain from cancer, and the doctors refused to increase his pain meds because it would depress his ability to breathe and he would die.
He was never given a choice.
He died anyway.
I would not blame anyone who couldn’t or wouldn’t do it. I understand.
I’m so sorry. A similar thing happened to my uncle about 11 years ago, liver and pancreatic cancer that went undiagnosed.
Mama, My FIL died in June 2006 and my MIL is just now fully realizing her loss. I’m probably not explaining this well - but she told me intellectually knows he is gone but emotionally she is just now feeling the full brunt. It’s been very emotional for her, and she is not an emotional person - so it’s been all that much harder to watch. My prayers are with you, you have lost so much but life is still to be lived. Peace Mama.
God has really blessed me by letting me meet a man who is very important to me. He lost his wife to cancer several years before my hubby died. We have so much in common-faith, values, are both nuts, etc. And he is a conservative!
I stay busy with my genealogy stuff and have really enjoyed doing that. I found a person who married into my family many years ago. I was looking for her ancestors and went back to about 410 and King Clovis, the Riparian of Cologne. I have no idea if there are any descendants living but I thought they might like to have this one day, if there are. Of course, there are so many errors in genealogy sites so I try to find sites which verify my info. Census data helps a lot. Since I have this data, they will have to do the verification. That is only fair!
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