[Non-Sequitur]

Do you have any idea who St. George Tucker was or the import of his work that I linked to in #201?

Yep.

I think not so I will presume to inform you a little on the subject!

Oh goody.

It is, at best, a chicken-or-egg situation. The Declaration of Independence states that representatives of the United States of America declared its independence. Well the United States at the time was made up of 13 sovereign states. I don't think that Lincoln was right when he said the union predates the states anymore than you are correct in saying the states predate the Union. They were born simultaneously and one cannot exist without the other. However, much of what Lincoln said WAS true in that the Union existed before most of the rebelling states did, and that it did, in effect, create them when they were allowed to join the Union.

[Bigun]

I don't think that Lincoln was right when he said the union predates the states anymore than you are correct in saying the states predate the Union. They were born simultaneously and one cannot exist without the other.

Horse feathers!

After the collapse of British authority in 1775 it became necessary to form new state governments and by the end of 1777 ten new state constitutions had been created. Connecticut and Rhode Island kept their colonial charters but removed all references to British sovereignty. Massachusetts waited until 1780 to adopt it's new Constitution. All of this prior to adoption to the Articles of Confederation!

The were already free and independent states prior to their becoming party to any union whatever!

[Bigun]

However, much of what Lincoln said WAS true in that the Union existed before most of the rebelling states did, and that it did, in effect, create them when they were allowed to join the Union.

I guess the word "create" carries a different meaning for you than it does for most everyone else.

Main Entry: ¹cre·ate

Pronunciation: \krē-ˈāt, ˈkrē-ˌ\

Function: verb

Inflected Form(s): cre·at·ed; cre·at·ing

Etymology: Middle English, from Latin creatus, past participle of creare; akin to Latin crescere to grow — more at crescent

Date: 14th century

transitive verb 1 : to bring into existence <God created the heaven and the earth — Gen 1:1(Authorized Version)>
2 a : to invest with a new form, office, or rank <was created a lieutenant> b : to produce or bring about by a course of action or behavior <her arrival created a terrible fuss> <create new jobs>
3 : cause, occasion <famine creates high food prices>
4 a : to produce through imaginative skill <create a painting> b : design <creates dresses>intransitive verb 1 : to make or bring into existence something new
2 : to set up a scoring opportunity in basketball <create off the dribble

Create.