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To: miliantnutcase

I thought the new MiG was supposed to deal with the raptor....


16 posted on 02/14/2010 8:17:14 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Secret Agent Man; miliantnutcase; sonofstrangelove
I thought the new MiG was supposed to deal with the raptor....

A couple of thoughts: for one the new MiG you might be referring to is the MiG-35 'Super Fulcrum,' which is an evolution of the MiG-29 Fulcrum using work done on the MiG-29 OVT, which gives the -35 an AESA radar, longer legs, a much superior avionics suite, better engines, new weapons (such as an evolution of the R-77 for long range, and an evolution of the R-73 for short range) and true 3D thrust vectoring. However, it was never meant to deal with the Raptor ...instead it is intended for the Indian MRCA contract, where the Indians are looking for around 126 multi-role aircraft to match their SU-30MKIs. The craft is not meant to match up against Raptors but rather to be better than anything the Pakistanis have (which it does ...easily, even against the Pakistani F-16s), as well as be a good backbone against the Chinese (debatable ...most of the Chinese warbirds are quite old, but the planned SU-35 purchases, the under limited production J-10s, and the SU-27/30MKK/J-11 would not be an easy laugh for India). Thus, if this is the new MiG, then it is meant to be a counter for India against any 4th generation (and some Gen 4.5, though not all) that India may bump into in the region. Note that the other contenders for the Indian MRCA program are the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Dassault Rafale, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the F-16IN 'Super' Viper, and the Gripen NG.

Now, there was meant to be a MiG 5th generation platform (actually several, with one that flew called the 1.42/1.44 MFI; and a proposal for a smaller version of the PakFa to be to the PakFa what the F-35 is to the F-22), but none of them were pushed forward. The Russians decided to go with the PakFa project after realizing that the 1.42/44 wouldn't be competitive, as well as due to cost constraints during the dark days of Yeltsin. The wait seems to have paid off for them since the PakFa by coming out quite some time later benefited from better technologies, more knowhow, and a fatter Russian wallet due to oil and natural gas.

Now, as for the PakFa dealing with the Raptor, that is also not what the real function of this plane is. It is just that the media and Cold War warriors always tend to see things that way.

To start with, the plane is not as good (let alone better) than the Raptor. The Raptor was built with far stricter tolerances when it comes to stealth ...for instance it is all-aspect stealth (as opposed to the far less stealth to be found in - say- the F-35, which is only optimized towards frontal aspect X-band, has a far weaker stealthiness aspect to IR which becomes atrocious to the rear, and would be easy to track by L-band and quite possibly S-band radars ....which is why ORIGINALLY BEFORE THE RAPTOR WAS SEEN AS 'USELESS' BY THE BUSH AND OBAMA ADMINISTRATIONS the purpose of the F-35 was to come in once the Raptor and the B-2 have pounded any of the really bad defences present). The F-22 was intended not only to be superior to future stealthy Russian planes, but also as a deep advanced IADS (integrated air defense system) networks. The PakFa is not that.

What the PakFa is is an advanced 5th generation airframe that stems from a defensive point of view, and that is oriented towards defeating any future CHINESE fighters. This is easy to see when viewed from a Russian AND Indian context. Quite similar to why the Indians developed the BrahMos supersonic (soon to be hypersonic) cruise missile with the Russians, and why it is not being offered to the Chinese. China is the major nation threat to both India and Russia, and where their defensive budgets are oriented towards. It is not Pakistan for India, nor the US for Russia ...it is China. There are some huge tracts in Siberia that China believes belong to it (and that it 'lost' while it was too busy engaged in the Opium wars), and ofcourse the issues and wars fought between India and China. If you look at the area, all around China there are nations that are forming affiliated 'blocks' (e.g. Viet Nam, Singapore, South Korea, Japan, Australia, Russia, India ....the US).

The PakFa is primarily a Chinese centered solution, particularly now that the Chinese are now working on their own 5th generation program (the J-12/13/XX program).

Is the PakFa 5th generation?

Well, yes! It is stealthy (in the frontal hemisphere mostly, and against X-band in particular, but then again so is the F-35), it can supercruise (like the Raptor ...and unlike the F-35 which cannot), has a powerful advanced X-band AESA (like the Raptor and the F-35), has other AESA radars in its chin and the leading edges of the wingtips (Ka and L band AESAs, which the Raptor is capable of carrying in the 'cheeks' but currently does not have, and which the F-35 does not have ...these can be used to track lower stealth aspect planes like the F-35 and JXX), an advanced OLS infra-red tracking and targeting (which can be used to track stealthy planes that are not too careful about their IR signature), has internal carriage of weapons in bays, has good fuel fraction, etc. It is definitely 5th generation, just not as strictly all-aspect like the F-22 Raptor (but then again, neither is the F-35).

I think calling this plane a Raptorski, as some in the media have been doing, is not appropriate. It is not a Raptor analogue, in as much as the F-35 is not a Raptor analogue. The only way it would stand up against the Raptor is if the Russians and Indians were to go to war against the US (highly unlikely), were to have over a thousand of these jets against the 187 Raptors (unlikely too since the planned production is 500 ...250 for the Indians and a similar number for the Russians), or were to sell it to the Chinese and the Chinese crank them out in large numbers (Russia has been smarting after selling planes to the Chinese and having illegal copies made ...e.g. the SU-30MKK into the J11 thing, and just a couple of months ago refused to sell to the Chinese the SU-33 naval Flanker. There are some doubts that the SU-35 will be sold to the Chinese as well, but that remains to be seen. Jointly developed with India weapons like the BrahMos are not on offer to the Chinese, and neither will the PakFa). The PakFa would not be able to deal with the Raptor 1 on 1, but may be a real threat to the F-35 ....but the two will not meet up.

It is the PLAAF that needs to be worried here rather than the USAF.

17 posted on 02/15/2010 12:17:02 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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