Missouri Senate Race Heating UP

Rasmussin Reports and Fired Up Missouri ^ | 01/25/2010 | self

[o_zarkman44]

Once again the official Republican Party is going to try to push off a Name Brand, lifelong politician to fill a Senate Seat of a life long Republican who is finally retiring. Roy Blunt is not the conservative candidate. Chuck Purgason is. It's time he get some media attention. We can get his campaign fired up.

And by the way, he supports the Fair Tax.

[JohnLongIsland]

Time to pull a Marco Rubio in the “Show Me” state...

[MHT]

Fair Tax is a lousy, lousy idea. It punishes those who can least afford it. Blunt is electable and has won state-wide elections before. And he can raise enough money to possibly beat the Democratic-money machine that includes the likes of Al Franken and Soros. Carnahan is a tough cookie to beat and she would beat any lesser candidate than Blunt in a nano-second.

[Revel]

I personally don’t know anything about these guys. But there is no victory in electing a Rino. If that is what he is and he is the one on the ticket then withhold your vote on that race. Don’t buy into the lessor of two evils argument ever again. That is exactly how we ended up where we are today. It time to break that cycle, and to send the right message to the RNC and to the people that conservatives won’t fall for it anymore. And that conservatives stand for principles. At some point that will pay off big.

[o_zarkman44]

How is the Fair Tax a lousy idea when it eliminates state income tax? States with no state income tax have over twice the economic development activity over states with an income tax, like Missouri. Check out the study at the Show Me Institute.
The Fair Tax only applies to consumption of new goods, not used goods.
The Fair Tax in Missouri will only raise the state sales tax by just over nine-tenths of a cent.

The fair tax is indexed to the federal poverty income level so everyone will receive a prebate equal to that amount.
Once again, tax is paid only when money is spent. There is no penalty for saving, working overtime, or doing well.

No income tax on dividends.

All legitimate business tax deductions still apply for materials and supplies used in business.

How do you see this as punishing low income people?

And you are wrong about Purgason. Missourians are tired of political nepotism and name brand politicians of which Blunt and Carnahan both qualify for.

[DiHerself]

Who is it that can “least afford” the FairTax, and how will they be punished?

Carnahan is steadily polling 42-48%. In the ONE poll with Purgason, he wasn’t that far behind Carnahan, and that was months ago. If Missouri couldn’t pull a “Brown” with Purgason, then we deserve to be led around by the RINO Blunt.

[MHT]

Sales tax-concepts hurt the middle-class and poor the most. Unless you exclude food and clothing (as Massachusetts did in the 1970’s), they will pay a disproportionate cost because food and clothing take a greater percentage out of their disposal income. The rich don’t need to buy things. Furthermore, 75-80% of Missourians live within 20 minutes of another state. So if I planned to buy a product, I would seriously consider buying it in Kansas and avoid the MO sales tax. Same with a house. Why build a house if it is inflated by sales taxes paid on materials? Young people who want to buy cars and houses will have to delay or completely forget acquiring things. If people can’t afford the taxes on a new house, they won’t build one. This doesn’t help the construction worker, the lumber yard owner, painters, and etc. Missouri’s current unemployment rate is 9.6%. Any major change in taxation would influence consumption and, ultimately, employment. Sales tax holidays are big days for retail. Cash for Clunkers was Obama’s most successful idea and the $8000 tax credit for home buyers is a key reason the real estate market is holding as well as it is. If anything, sales taxes should be lowered or eliminated, not become the backbone of an entire taxation system.

[o_zarkman44]

Kansas is pushing the same proposal. So the border argument is a moot point. Illinois sales taxes are already higher than Missouri. 1 cent is not going to be noticed.

I admire champions for the poor. However confiscation of state taxes leaves less disposable income available to make purchases on necessities. And I repeat, the tax is indexed to federal poverty guidelines so no low income consumers will be adversely affected.
In addition, since lower income consumers tend to purchase used cars they will no longer pay sales tax on that transaction.

Building a house? Taxes are already built in to the overall costs of construction in the payroll taxes withheld and matched by the contractor. Same with the material. Income Taxes are already built into the cost of he material.

Perhaps if a border company don’t have to pay matching withholding income taxes on their employees, they can lower their cost of doing business which would offset .091 cents you are so worried about breaking the bank with.

[o_zarkman44]

In addition to your post, Cash for clunkers was a FAILURE. It caused a spike in sales which fell off dramatically after the program ended. Plus, the federal government borrowed the money, so everyone, not just the people who bought cars, will be penalized with higher taxes.

Government money going into cars or housing only delays the inevitable, breaks the federal treasury, and causes a crash that will take years to recover. Watch out for the kool aid.

[rbbeachkid]

I loved the statement - “The rich don’t need to buy things.” And as such should be responsible for financing the middle class and the poor? This is the problem with the entire system. If everyone were affected by the costs of government, there would be more engagement regarding what was spent on whom. IMO, the poor would benefit from a requirement to share some of the responsibilities.

[Man50D]

Sales tax-concepts hurt the middle-class and poor the most. Unless you exclude food and clothing (as Massachusetts did in the 1970’s), they will pay a disproportionate cost because food and clothing take a greater percentage out of their disposal income.

I suggest you read up on the Fair Tax Act(HR25/S296)before making a blanket statement. You would have realized people will receive a rebate at the beginning of each month for the tax on necessities(food, shelter, clothing, medical care) up to the poverty level. The middle class and poor will benefit the most since effective tax rate(after the prebate is factored) will be lowest in comparison to their salaries. The Missouri Sales tax proposal also includes a prebate. Additionally lower income people tend to buy used big ticket items. The Fair Tax will not tax used items thereby benefiting lower income earners the most.

The rich don’t need to buy things.

Oh really? They don't buy food, clothing and shelter? The prebate for high income earners will be a very small percentage compared to their wages. Consequently the effective tax rate will be nearly the full amount. High income earners tend to spend more money on luxury items not covered by the prebate.

Furthermore, 75-80% of Missourians live within 20 minutes of another state. So if I planned to buy a product, I would seriously consider buying it in Kansas and avoid the MO sales tax. Same with a house.

You may want to reconsider. Missouri's reason for this legislation is due to the state losing revenue to surrounding states because Missouri's overall tax burden is greater. The Missouri Fair Tax legislation will replace individual and corporate income taxes with a flat rate sales tax of 5.11%

Why build a house if it is inflated by sales taxes paid on materials? Young people who want to buy cars and houses will have to delay or completely forget acquiring things.

Used homes will not be taxed. New home prices won't be inflated because there will be no business to business tax that can be passed onto the consumer. People will have more money in their paychecks to purchase big ticket items with the elimination of income taxes. All the embedded corporate income taxes in products purchased under the income tax will be removed thereby lowering the cost.

Any major change in taxation would influence consumption and, ultimately, employment.

You are correct! People will spend more with more money in their paychecks! More consumption will grow businesses and increase employment!

If anything, sales taxes should be lowered or eliminated, not become the backbone of an entire taxation system.

The current sales tax, along with the state income tax will be replaced with a single sales tax. This will lower the overall tax burden.

You can read the summary of MO-HJR25 at the following website: Summary of the Introduced Bill

[Crichton]

Not only was cash for clunkers a failure, a blatant giveaway to the auto companies and dealers, but the home buyer tax credit has been another failure, temporarily propping up prices only to have them fall further when the sugar high is over.

Let the free market work, stop pushing your socialist government intervention!

[MHT]

The tax needs to be revenue-neutral and the advertised rate of 5.11% doesn't do the job. The state already has a deficit. The Mo Fair Tax revenue neutral rate would be approximately 12.5%--which is alot higher than Illinois sales tax. It would cost the average MO family approximately $2200 per year over their current state income tax. However, those families making more than $1-million would see their taxes drop by more than $22,000 per family. It is an appeal to get retirees who don't need to buy stuff to move to MO. TX and FL already get this demographic and MO weather is not as good. Add the local sales taxes to the 12.5% (which could go up if this percentage doesn't prove revenue neutral) and it makes buying stuff in MO a no-go. There is no tax on labor, just materials. New houses would be unaffordable if you add sales tax on materials.

It would be great for my spouse and me. We've paid for our house. We've bought all the cars we want to buy. But we've got four kids and I don't think that, given their current salaries and income potential, they would ever be able to achieve a middle-class lifestyle in MO if they had to add at least 12.5% to everything they buy. Young people can hardly afford rent, health insurance, gas, car insurance, and food.

[RabidBartender]

""Here's Rep. Rob Schaaf praising Purgason for his independence from lobbyists, hard work , being a "non-RINO Republican" and fiscal conservatism."

Also, Dr. Schaaf is running for an open State Senate seat, and could use some support. (see sig)

[RabidBartender]

Dear sir, here is a Missouri thread for your possible ping.

[RabidBartender]

Dear sir, here is a Missouri thread for your possible ping.

[MHT]

The text of the bill is very misleading about what will really happen when the implementation occurs. The additional 1% added over current taxes will not be revenue neutral. In fact, they really can't give a solid number of what the actual tax rate will be or quickly become. The idea of making merchants and workmen tax collectors is an undue burden and a disincentive to starting a business. The logistics of prebates, rebates, etc. creates more bureaucracy. Furthermore, poverty is fluid. Categorization of need could change monthly, adding more complexity to an already drained social welfare system. Adding prebates and rebates to food stamps and Medicaid and school lunches just adds another layer to the welfare state.

Balancing the Missouri budget is a moving target because of our current recession, unemployment, and state entitlement mandates. There is no way that Jeff City can balance the current budget given the unknowns muchless know the numbers needed to change the system. Revenue neutrality can only be guessed.

Rich people do not necessarily buy luxury items. The millionaire-next-door is more likely to be the guy next to you in Wal-Mart than the hot-shot in the leased sportscar. Rich people figure out ways to get around taxes. Furthermore, tax policies influence spending patterns, which is why sales-tax holidays are so popular. I know several small shopkeepers whose biggest days of the year are the sales-tax holidays. Missouri recently rejected an additional tax on cigarettes. I know a fellow with a quick stop near the IL border whose business would have dried up had our taxes on cigarettes become higher than IL's. Furthermore, that guy from the next state buying cigs usually buys gas and food while he's here.

Comparing MO's tax burden to other states, particularly Tennessee, is deceptive. TN is a right-to-work state. We also have state liabilities that other states don't have because of our loss of the lead mining business (making Emerson's district the 14th poorest in the country), as well as loss of corporate headquarters in St. Louis and closures of auto plants.

Construction will be seriously effected. Of course new construction will be taxed. Lumber will be taxed. New refrigerators will be taxed. We will become like European countries that have 20% vat taxes. Lucky tourists get the money back when they leave the country but the locals have to pay it. This is a step to the European-ization of the US.

[DiHerself]

Those poor and middle class will be tax FREE - any legal citizen that signs up for it will get a ‘prebate’ which is how much a family of their size would spend for taxes on necessities up to the poverty level. And prices will not skyrocket...at all. The rich don’t need to buy things? HA! The ones I’ve been around didn’t buy most things because they NEEDED them.
Housing costs will NOT be inflated, as the FairTax is ONLY placed on the END product. NO business to business tax. NO tax on used items, from clothing to cars.
Your fears/concerns are from being misinformed.

[dschueth]

I live in Missouri. Take a look at Roy Blunt’s voting record before you call him a Rhino.
He votes 99% CONSERVATIVE. Ok, he may miss the mark once in a great while but he is just as conservative as Purgason is. I am an independent. He has my vote.
http://www.ontheissues.org/house/roy_blunt.htm

[Man50D]

The text of the bill is very misleading about what will really happen when the implementation occurs.

You better tell that to the Missouri legislature. They wrote the bill! The bill is patterned after The Fair Tax Act(HR25/S296). You would realize the similarities if you took time to read HR25/S296!

The idea of making merchants and workmen tax collectors is an undue burden and a disincentive to starting a business.

Missouri merchants are already tax collectors for the existing sales tax!

The logistics of prebates, rebates, etc. creates more bureaucracy.

Please explain how one form of taxation replacing two forms of taxation will increase the bureaucracy.

Furthermore, poverty is fluid. Categorization of need could change monthly, adding more complexity to an already drained social welfare system.

The prebate is determined by the Department of Health & Human Services’ existing poverty level guideline table. Fair Tax FAQ#3. The table changes at most once per year.

Adding prebates and rebates to food stamps and Medicaid and school lunches just adds another layer to the welfare state.

Administering the prebate will be offset by eliminating the far larger bureaucracy required to print, send and record for the multitude of income tax forms people must file.

There is no way that Jeff City can balance the current budget given the unknowns muchless know the numbers needed to change the system. Revenue neutrality can only be guessed.

What unknowns? You know the rate will be 5.11%! You also know a sales tax base code is far more stable than an income tax since unemployed people will still make purchases during an economic downturn as opposed not paying income taxes when they are laid off.

Rich people do not necessarily buy luxury items.

They buy far mroe luxury items then lower income people.

The millionaire-next-door is more likely to be the guy next to you in Wal-Mart than the hot-shot in the leased sportscar.

The millionaire next door has more discretionary income to spend than a lower income person and therefore tend to purchase big ticket items more often.

Rich people figure out ways to get around taxes.

Explained to me how one gets around paying a sales tax when it is applied at the point of sale. Is this a rampant problem with Missouri's existing sales tax?

I know several small shopkeepers whose biggest days of the year are the sales-tax holidays.

That's due to them paying a sales tax on top of an income tax! The state Fair Tax will replace both with only one tax.


Comparing MO's tax burden to other states, particularly Tennessee, is deceptive. TN is a right-to-work state.

Tell that to the state of Missouri who is losing tax dollars to neighboring states because of the higher overall tax burden.

Of course new construction will be taxed.Of course new construction will be taxed. Lumber will be taxed. New refrigerators will be taxed.

New items will not be taxed if purchased by businesses. New items will be taxed for private consumption but will be offset their increase in purchasing power due to more money in their paychecks, the reduction in prices due to the elimination of embedded corporate taxes passed onto the consumer and the prebate.

We will become like European countries that have 20% vat taxes.

You are not paying attention. HJR56 will be the antipathy of a VAT since it will remove the all VATs caused by embedded corporate taxes applied at each stage of production.