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To: freedumb2003; Flavius; Blood of Tyrants; Dan Middleton; Gone_Postal; VOA; myknowledge
I suspect the thrust vectoring of an F-22 would probably give it a dogfight profile that could pretty much obliterate the Mig-35. But how would a dogfight ever result in today’s world? This ain’t “Top Gun” politics anymore...

Actually, the MiG-35 ALSO has thrust vectoring ...and unlike the 2-D TVC of the Raptor, the MiGs is 3-D (in all axis). The MiG-35 is the most maneuverable military fighter on the market currently when it comes to low speed maneuvers.

However, in the REAL world the Raptor would smite the Super-Fulcrum due to its much better kinematic performance, sensor fusion and stealthiness. Moreover, at supersonic speeds the Raptor's maneverability is better.

However, in a WVR dog fight (if a Raptor pilot was dumb enough to get himself or herself in one), the MiG-35 would have a better chance all things being equal. Most probably what would happen, with today's I(I)R missiles, is that both pilots would kill each other ...the Raptor dead from the R-74, and the Super-Fulcrum from the AIM-9X.

Now ...what about dogfighting being of the past?

Not necessarily, and I think some day some Western airforce will get a nasty surprise. This is why - for the past couple of decades BVR warfare has really become the major weapon it was meant to be (particularly after the lessons of Viet Nam). Advanced missiles like the AMRAAM have really changed the game. However, looking at the pK of the AMRAAM (around 50%) against non-maneuvering non-jamming targets flown by pilots that are not that well trained and that are operating in an environment where they have no situational awareness while our side has advanced missiles, advanced fighters, advanced training and are operating in an environment where (via, say, AWACs and inter-aircraft linkages) they have solid situational awareness.

Now, what if we go to war with a near-peer adversary?

For one thing, while their training may not be as cutting edge as the USAF's, it has gotten exponentially better in the last decade. They will definitely be jamming (and not the simple stuff you could simply set on home-to-jam), will not be static targets, will have better situational awareness than the Iraqis, and have a dedicated stratagem of stealing/leaching our situational awareness (e.g. missiles specifically targeted for very-long-range anti-AWACS duties) and persistence (policy of knocking out refueling airplanes and airplane bases). In such an event, the Russian 'junk' so many love to make a mockery of may indeed, the later iterations of fighters such as the SU-35 which China is planning on acquiring, prove to be more than a match for any legacy fighter we put up.

Now, the Raptor was made to fight off against advanced Soviet fighters that are only now starting to creep out of Russia (like the PakFa, which is only about to begin testing now), and thus it can be able to chew up even SU-35s at will. However, we have only 187 Raptors, since most politicians (and even some FReepers) only see in the short term, and believe that there is no need for an expensive cold-war jet when all our enemies need CURRENTLY is an A-10 and a Predator with a HellFire drooping its wings! Well, some day we will fight a near-peer adversary (maybe China), and maybe then people will realize what the military has always known since the Cold War ...that assets like the A-10 Thunderbolt and the Apache helicopter could NEVER survive in an advanced IADS (according to one person in the know, in the 80s they were never expected to survive long should the Soviets have attacked through the Fulda. The joke was that Apache pilots thought the A-10s would go down first, while the Warthog pilots thought the AH-64s would go down first). Just because some stinky @$$ Jihadi is helpless against a Reaper with some thirsty JDAMs looking to convert camel-rammers into 72 virgin applicants doesn't mean that over China it could even know what smote it silly.

Anyways, in such an environment it is quite easy for legacy fighters (e.g. the 15, 16, 18) to find themselves in a situation that, while not a dogfight, is uncomfortably too close for comfort. The Raptor would not be in such a position due to its advanced sensor fusion, and also because it can be able to engage and disengage at will. The 120 million Dollar question is whether the F-35 will be able to do so? Some think it can, others think it will not.

We'll see some day.

20 posted on 01/10/2010 11:17:17 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: spetznaz

“We’ll see someday” We will, and it will come from the South.


22 posted on 01/11/2010 12:10:51 AM PST by Atchafalaya (Atchafalaya Basin; when you're there , thats the best)
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To: spetznaz

Good response and a refreshing change from the Russians sell junk crowd, Thanks


25 posted on 01/11/2010 2:23:40 AM PST by brooklin
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