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To: Zionist Conspirator
the "new testament" authoritatively interprets and "fulfills" the "old" is not self-evidently true

The old also speaks of the new - it works both ways. Jesus came to fulfill the law and He did just that. We are no longer under the 'law' but under grace. The new testament clearly shows that. If one choses to live under the law, they will be judged by the law. No one can honestly say they can live by the law. Remember what happened to the man when he picked up sticks on the Sabbath?

The law was imposed to show man what God's righteousness was. The religious were going around claiming to be righteous and He instituted the law to show what righteousness was and to reign in on all the lawlessness - and we ALL fall short and could never attain righteousness because of our sin nature. We needed a Savior.

Jesus, the spotless Lamb, came to fulfill the law for us. He covered the sins of all but many don't accept it; instead, think their good works or reading the bible or attending a service will get them to heaven. NOT SO! Unless one accepts Jesus as their Savior, who believe in what He did at The Cross, is covered. Even though he shed His blood for ALL. We must accept it by faith - not understand it - but by faith only. We receive salvation by His Grace through our faith in what He did for us. Jesus did His part - grace, we must do our part - faith. It's no wonder God's Word stresses obedience to His Word - whether we under stand it or not - obey first (faith) and understanding follows. Come to me as a child.

Why anyone thumbs their nose at a priceless paid in full gift is beyond me. Is it pride or a lack of knowledge - who knows. Jesus did his part but it's our decision in this lifetime where we want to spend eternity - according to HIS rules, not ours. It's not in God's hands, He already did everything so we can be with Him for eternity and that's what He wants and why Jesus came. That's why The Bible is called the Good News.

BTW, no offense taken or given.
2,379 posted on 12/14/2009 3:28:28 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
I wish you wouldn't insist on arguing about this.

The old also speaks of the new - it works both ways. Jesus came to fulfill the law and He did just that. We are no longer under the 'law' but under grace. The new testament clearly shows that.

The "new testament" is what chr*stians believe. It is not "obviously" or "self-evidently" true.

If one choses to live under the law, they will be judged by the law. No one can honestly say they can live by the law. Remember what happened to the man when he picked up sticks on the Sabbath?

Jews are under the Torah. Non-Jews are under the Seven Commandments of the Sons of Noach. No choice about it. It is simply G-d's decree. If you don't like it, take it up with Him.

The law was imposed to show man what God's righteousness was. The religious were going around claiming to be righteous and He instituted the law to show what righteousness was and to reign in on all the lawlessness - and we ALL fall short and could never attain righteousness because of our sin nature. We needed a Savior.

This is the chr*stian, and specifically Evangelical Protestant, worldview. It is not the worldview of the Torah, though chr*stians insist on retrojecting it into it.

The purpose of the Torah is not to pay Adam's sin debt or enable one to "go to Heaven." It is an end in and of itself. The only reason this world was created was so Israel could keep the Torah.

Jesus, the spotless Lamb, came to fulfill the law for us.

The claim of chr*stianity. Not self-evidently true.

He covered the sins of all but many don't accept it; instead, think their good works or reading the bible or attending a service will get them to heaven. NOT SO! Unless one accepts Jesus as their Savior, who believe in what He did at The Cross, is covered. Even though he shed His blood for ALL. We must accept it by faith - not understand it - but by faith only. We receive salvation by His Grace through our faith in what He did for us. Jesus did His part - grace, we must do our part - faith. It's no wonder God's Word stresses obedience to His Word - whether we under stand it or not - obey first (faith) and understanding follows. Come to me as a child.

I know all about the Evangelical Protestant antinomian loophole "vicarious damnation of a Divine scapegoat in our place" religion. In fact, I grew up in it. It is an innovation of men that is foreign to the Torah.

Why anyone thumbs their nose at a priceless paid in full gift is beyond me.

And if I believed as you do, so would I.

Is it pride or a lack of knowledge - who knows. Jesus did his part but it's our decision in this lifetime where we want to spend eternity - according to HIS rules, not ours. It's not in God's hands, He already did everything so we can be with Him for eternity and that's what He wants and why Jesus came. That's why The Bible is called the Good News.

I don't know why others reject this. Actually, until Martin Luther and John Calvin came along even chr*stianity didn't see things this way (Eastern Orthodoxy rejects the idea of the "blood atonement," and it is a very ancient version of chr*stianity--certainly more authentic than Evangelical Protestantism). But I know why I reject it. It is forbidden by G-d to add or create new religions after the Ultimate Revelation at Sinai.

Here is a vanity thread myself attempting to explain Evangelical Protestantism to Orthodox Jews. While I do not agree with the Evangelicals I was actually defending them against ignorant charges of "hatred." Unfortunately, a few Evangelicals chose to ignore this and use the thread to argue against the Torah. Oh well.

BTW, no offense taken or given.

That is good to know!

2,391 posted on 12/14/2009 3:51:24 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Vaya`an Yosef 'et-Par`oh le'mor bil`aday; 'Eloqim ya`aneh 'et-shelom Par`oh.)
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