How World War II Wasn’t Won

NY Times ^ | November 23, 2009 | DAVID P. COLLEY

[Tallguy]

The war was static because the overstretched supply lines caused shortages of everything, particularly gasoline for the tanks, half-tracks & trucks. The mobile warfare of the Summer was effectively over. The port of Antwerp, in Monty’s area, was sabotaged by the retreating Germans. The port was really not in operation much before the Battle of the Bulge.

The irony is that when Ike discovered that he didn’t have the supplies to continue with the ‘Broad Front’ strategy, he turned to the one commander, Montgomery, least equipped by nature for aggressive action. Ike probably had little choice because Monty had a shorter distance to travel and was closer to coastal resupply.

Even with all that, Market Garden came up only 1 bridge short of its objective.

[Berlin_Freeper]

And technically they had the bridge but failed to arrive.

[grey_whiskers]

*PING* to post #24 this thread.

Cheers!

[Bender2]

Re: The Rhine wasn’t crossed until March 1945. Had Eisenhower let Devers make his attack, we might now be celebrating the 65th anniversary of a cross-Rhine attack that quickly ended the war in Europe. Instead, we will soon mark the anniversary of the costliest battle in American history, the Battle of the Bulge.

David P. Colley is the author of “Decision at Strasbourg: Ike’s Strategic Mistake to Halt the Sixth Army Group at the Rhine in 1944.”

Generally when I see anything in the New York Slimes about history, I get a large dose of Epsom salts ready. When the writer of this op-ed piece is promoting his own book, I think twice again.

My later Father landed in Southern France and fought all along the way with Devers' Sixth Army Group, so I am not a totally uninterested observer.

When ever you start using 'if' as semi-hard fact, all reason goes out the window. Ike had enough problems getting adequate supplies and logistics to Bradley, Patton and Montgomery along the Northern Front and they were all bending his ear for a quick, rapid thrust to "end" the war quickly. Monty's quick, rapid thrust a bridge too far had already drained away too many gas, ammo and food.

How was Ike to supply Dever's Sixth Army Group for another quick, rapid thrust after the Market-Garden mess?

Ike was playing the correct conservative hand as the entire charge from Normandy east was slowed more by lack of supplies than any German defense.

David P. Colley can write all the 'if' he wants, but nothing changes the facts of late 1944.

[SkyPilot]

FROM THE SCRIPT OF "PATTON"

Sir, there's a call on your line from supreme headquarters, General Smith.

Bedell?

Ike is furious.

How could you compare Republicans and Democrats to the Nazi Party?

And the statement that you refuse to denazify. . .

. . .has the Russians, the British, everybody, screaming.

Well, the hell with the Mongoloid Russians.

We've given them Berlin, Prague, God knows what else.

They gonna dictate policy too?

George, don't be a fool.

The war in Europe is over. Washington dictates policy.

The war shouldn't be over. We should stop pussyfooting about the Russians!

We'll have to fight them anyway. Why not do it now, when the army's here?

lnstead of disarming Germans let's get them to help fight the Bolsheviks.

You better shut up. This line may be tapped.

I don't care. I'll tell you. . .

. . .we've been fighting the wrong people.

[JoeMac]

“I remain Market-Gardens sole champion. I consider it an unqualified success.’’- Field Marshall Sir Bernard Law Montgomery. “My country can never again afford the luxury of a Montgomery success’’.- Then 33 year-old Prince Pegent of Holland Prince Rupert, 1944.

[Tallguy]

Developed originally by Gen. Elwood Quesada of IX TAC for the First Army at Operation Cobra the technique of “armored column cover” whereby close air support was directed by an air traffic controller in one of the attacking tanks was used extensively by the Third Army.[29]

The Germans did it first in combat, radio-linking their command tanks with Stuka support. It's a tough offensive combination to stop when the enemy has air superiority.

[dfwgator]

But Monty needed the gasoline so he could re-organize and ruin Market Garden.

There, fixed it!

[dfwgator]

Big mistake, as was the idiotic operation Market Garden(one of Montys brilliant ideas)that cost us at least 10,000 troops captured and killed.

And a lot of dead Dutch civilians who starved during the Winter of '44.

[Tallguy]

Eisenhower was anything but indecisive. Monty was the real indecisive General of the war, or a better term would be an arrogant idiot. He took forever to take his D-day objective(forget the name of the town)and this slowed us down considerably.

Your thinking of the capital of Normandy, Caen. This was a D-Day objective for Monty, but it took him something like a month to take it.

The only reason we were "stalled" in the winter of 1944 was the weather and the fact that commanders thought we had the Germans all but defeated and so they halted to let supplies catch up to the troops.

Anybody who knows the weather in Europe knows that the cloud cover is generally heavy after September. Our senior air & ground officers would have known this and accounted for it in their operations. They had all been there in 1917-18.

Big mistake, as was the idiotic operation Market Garden(one of Montys brilliant ideas)that cost us at least 10,000 troops captured and killed.

It actually was a brilliant but risky concept. The airborne portion of the plan worked well enough despite communications problems with the British 1st Airborne Division on the furthest objectives. The real failure was poor operational planning on the part of the armored thrust of the British XXX Corps. Putting an entire armored corps on a single road is very risky, especially when the terrain on either side is too marshy to support the tanks when they deploy. A few well placed anti-tank guns can really gum-up the works.

[Locomotive Breath]

Monty’s D-Day objective was Caen. Thirty days later, the Allies finally had to bomb the crap out of it to drive the Germans out. Not much original left.

Don’t forget operation Goodwood as a bookend to Market Garden. Goodwood was Monty’s plan to take Caen that also failed. Monty later claimed that Goodwood held down all the German forces so that Patton could break out in the west in operation Cobra.

Two weeks ago, I was there and the rest of Normandy visiting the invasion sites. Wanted to do that for 30 years.

[jamaksin]

After so many years after Churchill's death, see the recent text by David Reynolds In Command of History.

Those six volumes were written by the so-called Syndicate and not Churchill, with Ismay the lead. Many of the assumed "official" documents noted were heavily, heavily ... edited!

Agreed on Hiss (State Department) ... but do not forget Harry "The Hop" Hopkins, FDR's alter ego, who lived in the White House, and who via the VERNONA project is now recognized as Soviet No. 19.

[jamaksin]

After so many years after Churchill's death, see the recent text by David Reynolds In Command of History.

Those six volumes were written by the so-called Syndicate and not Churchill, with Ismay the lead. Many of the assumed "official" documents noted were heavily, heavily ... edited!

Agreed on Hiss (State Department) ... but do not forget Harry "The Hop" Hopkins, FDR's alter ego, who lived in the White House, and who via the VERNONA project is now recognized as Soviet No. 19.

[Tallguy]

And technically they had the bridge but failed to arrive.

Yep. Imagine those poor British Paras being marched off to the POW camp when the XXX Corps tanks were only 10 miles or so away?

[yarddog]

I think part or mainly the reason Market Garden failed was pure bad luck. Wasn’t an elite German Panzer division resting and refitting right where they would do the most harm to us?

Apparently no one knew this beforehand.

[Tallguy]

Bradley, Ike, Hodges, et. al. were all infantry officers — the ‘Fort Benning’ Mafia. Devers was artillery before he was put in charge of building armored divisions at Fort Knox. Patton was cavalry and the exception since he was effectively the only senior tank expert.

You have to wonder how certain officers were handicapped at getting division/corps/army commands by virture of being from the “wrong branch”?

[Texas Eagle]

Eisenhower was also a cautious, some would say indecisive, commander....

Ohhhhhhh...I was wondering why the Slimes was revisiting WWII.

So now Ubama is Eisenhower.

Dwight D. Eisenbama.

[Tallguy]

Don’t forget operation Goodwood as a bookend to Market Garden. Goodwood was Monty’s plan to take Caen that also failed. Monty later claimed that Goodwood held down all the German forces so that Patton could break out in the west in operation Cobra.

Well, the Brit beaches were intended to take the brunt of the expected German counterattack. Sicily aside, US forces had not performed very well in the war up to that point. Certain British Officers were heard refering to US Troops as "Our Italians". Now you know why Patton was constantly PO'ed.

[Jack Hammer]

Hindsight is always 20-20.

[FreedomPoster]

He was better than their other commanders in North Africa, and you are spot on with the rest.