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To: GodGunsGuts
No I am not. I believe the predestination (from God’s standpoint) and free will (from our standpoint) exist at the exact same time (by design).

Jumping right back to this... (consider these questions to expand thought, not to challenge what you are saying..)

If many does have free will, then each choice we make has an equal opportunity to exist, correct? Free will does mean free, God doesn't direct the choice, but allows the choice to happen? God, however, predestining our fate then, must exist (for lack of a better term) in a plane of existence where every choice plays out? (thus "Supernatural" outside our laws of space/time). So He also can exist outside our timelines as well, where the future results of choices exist before our making those choices?

Why would this not just apply to man's choices but to every event from a particle touching another particle to a butterfly choosing to fly one way or another?

Could it not be that maybe when we study multi-verse theory (which now is just math and rudimentary experiments) we may be getting a glimpse that there is more to the physical universe than we exist in?

Have you ever thought that things like string theory and multi-verse may actually be man being allowed to get a little more glimpse of God's creation, not a challenge to what some may think is the limits to His creation?

19 posted on 11/18/2009 6:19:46 PM PST by mnehring
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To: mnehring

Here is a lesson in free will vs. predestination for you. I have to bug out of this discussion for the moment because I promised to cook dinner for my wife!


31 posted on 11/18/2009 6:27:21 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: mnehring
This question has been wrestled with many times. One explanation is found in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Chapter III: Of God's Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.

Chapter IX: Of Free Will.

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.

62 posted on 11/18/2009 7:08:34 PM PST by kosciusko51
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