Posted on 11/13/2009 7:51:55 AM PST by cornelis
"Interpreted" is a bit weak ... Jesus came right out and demanded it.
Actually, the dreariness of society is one part that she pretty much got right ... probably based on her personal experience of Soviet Russia.
The problem is that her heroes are just as dreary.
It struck me as being a species of philosophical egoism, of an extreme sort. Useful in small doses as a medicine to counteract Communist propaganda, but in larger doses a moral poison.
As a roadmap, it's a path to anarchy, albeit from a different route than that followed by traditional socialism and communism.
It's not just anti-Socialism and anti-Communism; it's anti-Society.
If followed to its logical conclusion, its result would be not a utopia but a wilderness. A wilderness of dragons.
Recently, my distant (in more than one sense) sister accused me in a poison pen letter e-mail of being like your male friend. She was mistaken, but through her subsequent manipulation she has managed to bring it about. I've lost my bearings. I've lost what I consider foundations of happiness.
And that I think is the key. Everyone of us seeks at the minimum foundations of happiness. They are different for each of us, and apparently the woman you describe has them, while the man does not. Perhaps his minimum requirements are too high, while hers are very low.
Depends on what one means by moderate.
There are scales of moderation, like anything else.
Hence, even moderation should be taken in moderation.
My post was written from the perspective of a non-believer such as Ms. Rand.
There is no way she would believe in the ongoing redemption of the world you mention.
Western Civilization not only does not seem to presently be undergoing even “on-going, gradual, incomplete” redemption at the present time. It appears to be going in reverse over much of its former area, at least if we use moral standards and belief in Christ as the standard. Most of Europe is essentially post-Christian at this point.
Thanks for an outstanding comment!
Well there is that bit where he begged his Father not to make him do it, but in the end said, "Let thy will be done."
Doesn't sound entirely voluntary, or at least not particularly cheerful about it.
Ah, now I get it ... having seen your posts elsewhere, I was a bit puzzled by it.
It appears to be going in reverse over much of its former area, at least if we use moral standards and belief in Christ as the standard. Most of Europe is essentially post-Christian at this point.
True ... but does that stand as a refutation of the efficacy of Christian belief, or as confirmation of it?
Thanks.
I’ve been popping in on occasion, but I never post because the threads are old.
It’s interesting to see how everyone breaks it down.
Not sure what you mean.
I think Europe is in the end-stages of squandering its moral capital accumulated over centuries of Christian belief and will soon descend into the abyss. Possibly a Muslim one, but it will be some sort of atrocious end.
The US is fighting an epic, although so far more or less nonviolent, civil war right now to determine whether we follow them into the abyss.
Not cheerful ... but somewhere in John doesn't he make clear that he does it of his own free will?
“How about having a doubly aduterous affair with a young married man some thirty years her junior while she, too, was married at the same.”
Well, at least she was not as bad as the rich guy with the two wives who not only bedded them but each of their maids as well and had twelve kids with them collectively. You know, what’s his name, Jacob, or Israel. In your words, his “personal life, values, and morals were perfectly atrocious.” But I bet you think he was just great.
Now I can point to exactly where that guy’s life is documented, so you do the same for Rand, and the accusations you’ve made, if you can, please. Aren’t you embarrased to be spreading unsubstantiated slander?
Hank
“How about having a doubly aduterous affair with a young married man some thirty years her junior while she, too, was married at the same.”
Well, at least she was not as bad as the rich guy with the two wives who not only bedded them but each of their maids as well and had twelve kids with them collectively. You know, what’s his name, Jacob, or Israel. In your words, his “personal life, values, and morals were perfectly atrocious.” But I bet you think he was just great.
Now I can point to exactly where that guy’s life is documented, so you do the same for Rand, and the accusations you’ve made, if you can, please. Aren’t you embarrased to be spreading unsubstantiated slander?
Hank
“There’s plenty of odor there, Hank, for those who have a sense of smell.”
Yes, you are right. I small scandal-monger and liar.
Hank
A note: using that standard, properly modified, you can't prove that the existence of the sex drive is an objective phenomenon. Your challenge seems loaded.
If it's "loaded," it's because of the claim that happiness is an objective property: "of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind ..."
Nobody denies that "happiness" is a real thing. The question is, rather, whether a state of happiness satisfies the criteria of objectivity.
Similarly, nobody denies the existence of a sex drive. But it is not a completely objective thing, either. Consider: Most guys don't want to have sex with every woman they see, and they don't even want to have sex all the time. The criteria for what makes you want to have sex with one woman and not another ... or now but not yesterday ... those are bewilderingly complicated, to say the least, and they're different for different people.
It's not enough to note the objective fact that there's a sex drive, or a human capacity for "happiness," however defined; the thing is that it operates on highly subjective criteria.
“Define in measurable terms the objective basis of ‘happiness,’ keeping in mind that to be objective, any given basis must infallibly produce ‘happiness,’ for all people at all times.
And while you’re at it, why not define happiness itself, in objective, measurable terms?
Your are a presumptive ... You don’t know me, so I’ll say gently, no one tells me what to.
I’m not a Randian and have no intention of defending her philosophy. (I could certainly do it, but won’t, mostly because I do not agree with much of her philosophy, but for reasons no one on this thread would understand, especially the idiots.)
Only an ... would say, “Define in measurable terms the objective basis of ‘happiness,’ keeping in mind that to be objective, any given basis must infallibly produce ‘happiness,’ for all people at all times.”
What, you think happiness is like a secretion that is produced by, what, some glandular process? Happiness is not a something, it is a state and since everyone is different, there can never be something that “produces” or “defines” happiness for everyone.
I know what happiness is for me, and how to achieve it. I have no idea what would make an idiot happy.
I’m not interested in defending Rand’s philosophy, only interested in giving some balance against the ignorant smears and slander spread by supposed “conservative” people.
Hank
Why are you pretending not to know what happiness is ? Even a dog intuitively knows what happiness is. "Measurable" is not synonymous with "objective" in Objectivism. That is the prevalent view of scientists and empiricist philosophers of science, but not in Objectivism.
Oh, boo hoo. Sorry, Hank. I don't have the patience to deal with your passive-agressive behavior today.
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