Posted on 11/12/2009 6:21:10 PM PST by bruinbirdman
You are proving my point about your single minded bigotry.
If you actually knew any American history, you would have known that the original motivation for settling this continent was Spanish conquest. Somewhat later was that some Catholics and slightly later some extreme protestant sects were persecuted in England. The French wanted to exploit natural resources (fishing, trapping, etc.). Some saw the economic opportunity to farm large plantations using African slave labor.
Then we got the starving Irish and large numbers of Italians and German catholics.
And so it went. Other than nature abhoring a vacuum there was no one single purpose for founding this country.
No fair reading of the history of the secessionists can conclude that the preservation of slavery in the South was not a primary motive.
Crawled out of your hole have you? Why don’t you try making your own arguments like that racist weasel that you are.
Why haven’t you figured out that your “race card” has expired?
Just hasn’t sunk in yet that yelling “racist” will not silence the truth anymore?
From your 201 post, I see that you, indeed, have been a disciple of Howard Zinn’s anti-American “History”.
One makes those comparisons all the time. One also makes comparisons between what South Africa has become and what Zimbabwe has become.
What is surprising is not the problems that South Africa has, but that it has gone as well as it has. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission, for instance, was largely talk, and there was no government backed mass execution of whites and expropriation of property. Industry and agriculture have continued to be highly productive, in stark contrast to the total economic collapse of Zimbabwe.
One of the differences was that a lot of the black South African government had European educations, and a lot more know have South African educations (remember that the SA university system was one of the premier university systems in the world, and remains remarkably good all considered).
Another difference is geographic. South Africa has strategically located ports and so trade with the rest of the world is almost unavoidable. It has also managed to continue to operate the only viable international airport an viable african airline and therefore Johannesburg is the hub of air travel and transportation for the entire region.
Is there a lot of socialist legislation. Of course. Given the stage of development, it is probably inevitable.
What is noticeable when you go to South Africa, however, is the remarkable sense of good will.
Their tsotsis are a problem sure. A big problem. A lot of the crime problem BTW not indigenous, but Nigerian and Zimbabwean immigrants.
And you cannot make bigoted statements and then excuse them by saying that calling folks a rascist for their bigotry is not allowed. Your highly offensive rascist remarks are never appropriate and I doubt that you have the courage to spout this poison anywhere except anonymously on the internet.
For instance, who were the first Europeans in America? When was the first capital city in America founded? Where was it?
This deft evasion of the truth is stunning. Exactly what were the secessionist seceding for. There can be no real doubt what it was all about since it was all well and carefully explained by a leading secessionist of the day, some guy named John C. Calhoun in his rather infamous speeches in the US Senate.
FYI, I am a South African, I grew up there and all of my family still lives there. Been in Texas for 7 years and go back every 2nd year to see the folks. I will hopefully be an American citizen by next year.
I lived through all of the changes, first in Namibia and then in South Africa. In fact, I was involved in doing business with the higher inner circles of the ANC, but don’t wish to discuss that in a public forum.
One has to remember that Zimbabwe is 15 years further down the line. The recent win of Zuma, backed by the more radical faction of the ANC, as opposed to the more moderate Mbeki camp, may spell more trouble going forward.
I don’t know where you get your information from on property expropriation. While it may not have been as violent and visible as in Zimbabwe, the number of commercial farmers have declined from around 80,000 to around 13,000. The government department responsible for paying land owners under the land restitution scheme is ZAR10billion in the red, and has paid out barely any of the money due to land owners under that scheme, and is currently being sued. Farm attacks have also persuaded mane farmers to just give up and stop farming. While South Africa does export agricultural goods, it is by far only in very specialized areas, as opposed to before when it was mostly in staples like corn.
Like I say, it is probably too complex to discuss all of the issues here. I agree that there is a lot of goodwill there, something that many people seem to miss. I keep hearing from my friends in the police in SA that the crime is not all that much from foreigners as the press would have one believe. It is true in some areas that foreign crime bosses organize robberies etc. But it is also true that for example, the large majority of Zimbabweans go there to work and quite frankly, are preferred as employees because they work harder for a lower wage, and also don’t unionize.
But like many other nations, the political desire for power by far overrides the needs of the people, and I don’t see that being solved any time soon.
He is incapable of learning.
A raging, angry defender of marxist socialism can think of nothing else. He hatres America, because he hates Christ.
This is good; this thread has taken his pants off completely, and he has been happy to comply.
At the core, this is the basis of all anti-Americanism, anti-traditionalism, multi-culturalism, "alternate history", etc.
Agreed that Zuma is a big concern.
The number of commercial farmers, according to statistics I can find are around 45,000. Moreover some of this is not the further division of profitable farms into subsistence farms, but rather the consolidation of farms into larger units. Another trend is that, apparently, when claims for land restitution are successful, the receiving tribe will frequently place the land under the management of a large commercial farmer. See here.
So the picture is not clear at all. Indeed, apparently the world bank goal for redistribution (OK, what is the world bank doing here?) is 30% of agricultural land by 2014 and apparently SA is running way behind. In short, we are not yet seeing mass appropriation and redistribution Zimbabwe style.
Since Mr. B you don’t know which was the first capital city in North America, it was Espanola New Mexico, founded in 1598, by Spanish Catholics. I guess this is multi-culturalism, but I don’t know that it is anti-American, anti-traditionalism, or even an “alternate history.”
The 45,000 are commercial farming units, not farmers. According to the latest tax records, the number of people or companies paying taxes from commercial farming is less than 13,000 (according to the Mail & Guardian newspaper). It seems as if there are some companies and/or farmers that own multiple units. Also, the 45,000 figure is fairly arbitrary, I’ve seen it in other places too, but can include small farmers, i.e. it comes down to how commercial farming is defined.
How do you account for the decline from 85,000 taxpaying commercial farmers to less than 13,000?
More importantly, how many farmers do you know in South Africa? How do you know what is happening on the ground there? I know some of the largest commercial farmers in South Africa, and I assure you that there has been a lot of farmers that just gave up and left farming because they are being murdered and robbed.
Do you call that Zimbabwe style or not?
My 45,000 comes from official statistical reports, one of which I cited, and not a newspaper article. It is an easy enough number to find if you try google.
If commercial farming declined as you stated the country would be starving.
I have business interests in South Africa and deal with folks there all the time. I visit frequently and have a lot of friends and relatives there.
I also know a lot of South African expats as a consequence. A lot of them are very bitter. They jumped the gun and left South Africa predicting a Zimbabwe like catastrophe, giving up a good life to come to the US. What they predicted would happen did not come about, and now they are doubly bitter, because life here is a lot harder, American society being somewhat treacherous to navigate. They badmouth the country at every turn.
Ah, I see, you know better what is going on in South Africa than a South African. I was waiting for you to imply that I am just another bitter expat. You don’t know anything about me, and you know precious little about South Africa.
You obviously did not bother to read the report you quoted (from a University think tank), or you would see that what I said was not different to what the report said about units vs farmers. And you maintain a newspaper article that quotes an official tax statistic is wrong.
Also, South Africa has around 10% of the population starving, with 40% being food insecure (not knowing whether they can eat tomorrow). But I guess you don’t see that, and your good buddies there don’t tell you that. Productivity has increased on farms though, so hopefully that can be addressed in the coming years.
I agree that all is not as bad as some want to make it. But it is also not as you state it to be.
“Probably not the bastard meant”.
Hah!
Touchy touchy.
Not at all. But shows how you choose to stereotype.
Nope. I am the one who tried to moderate the stereotypical condemnation of the whole place in the first place.
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