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Interesting discussion on Shannon Information vs. Complex Specified Information (CSI).

Both Jonathan Wells and Stephen Meyer evidently believe that Shannon Information Theory (not to mention Kolmogorov information complexity) is a theory of functional biological information. Yet it seems to me it is not: "Specified complexity" is not what Shannon deals with.

Functional biological information — Complex Specified Information (CSI) — is a higher-order type of information than Shannon. Shannon theory in biological systems essentially deals with the communication mechanisms involved in the successful transport of that higher-level CSI.

To refer to an analogy I've suggested before, Shannon is the "camel" that carries the functionally complex biological information; it is not a theory of the generation of complex, specified, functional biological information at all. Shannon theory can carry any and all messages, regardless of their type and meaning, whether they're biological or not. It is the communications medium, not the message being communicated.

To put it very crudely, specified biological complexity "sits on" the Shannon camel, which transports it where it needs to go.

At least this is my understanding, FWIW.

==Both Jonathan Wells and Stephen Meyer evidently believe that Shannon Information Theory (not to mention Kolmogorov information complexity) is a theory of functional biological information.

The more I read about the subject, the more I have come to realize that it is the evos who want to limit the study of biological information to Shannon-type information. But as Wells, Meyer, Williams, Gitt and many others point out, if Shannon information cannot tell the difference between mere statistical complexity and CSI, then it is not up to the task...which does not take away from what Shannon information was designed to describe and explain in the least IMHO.

All the best—GGG

[ To put it very crudely, specified biological complexity "sits on" the Shannon camel, which transports it where it needs to go. ]

Thats not crude at all.. but maybe its axiomatic..

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dearest sister in Christ!!!

I wish I had time to go into this in more detail, but I must “post and run” and so will copy here my reply to GodGunGuts' question from a previous thread. He asked:

I have searched and searched, and the more Creationists and IDers I read, the more they say Shannon information is either trivial, or entirely useless with respect to the Creation/Evolution debate, as it ignores the most important aspect of the design of life, namely the complex, functionally specified, digitally coded meaning of biological information. So unless I’m missing something, will someone please tell me why Shannon information is so important to the Creation/Evolution debate?

Here’s my reply from the previous thread:

Again, complex systems theory - which is the domain of these ID/creationist arguments - has to do with the message itself, not the communication of it (Shannon, information.)

Shannon's model is mathematics. The title reads Mathematical Theory of Communications.

Complex systems theory is inter-disciplinary.

So unless I’m missing something, will someone please tell me why Shannon information is so important to the Creation/Evolution debate?

Concerning molecular biology, things which are alive in nature communicate (Shannon, information.) If they can no longer communicate, they are dead. If they never could communicate, they are non-life.

The letter in your mailbox is of no effect until you read it and your uncertainty is reduced - you become "informed."

Major clue: DNA survives death. It is a message much like the letter in the mail box. In the dead person, the DNA message is no longer being transmitted.

Information (Shannon, successful communication) is the reduction of uncertainty in the receiver (or molecular machine) as it goes from a before state to an after state.

It is the action, not the message.

More importantly, Scriptures illuminate the relevance of communication. God's word becomes active or actualized once communicated (emphasis mine:)

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. – Genesis 1:3

For he spake, and it was [done]; he commanded, and it stood fast. – Psalms 33:9

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:17

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. - Genesis 1:20

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

I know of no other belief which clearly expresses that creation and most especially life, both physical and spiritual, is a message being communicated by God.

Jesus' Name is Word of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

Genesis 1:20 can be observed in biological life because of information theory (Shannon) as it has been applied to molecular biology in a variety of successful investigations, e.g. cancer research, pharmaceuticals, Wimmer's bootstrapping the polio virus from the RNA message.

The verse from Scripture:

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. - Genesis 1:20

Obviously, the communication (Shannon, information) is God speaking to the waters to bring forth things which have life.

That is to say, life in itself – biologically living things. (I strongly recommend Rosen’s book Life Itself to see how first and final cause are entailed in biological life.)

The link between water which is non-life and living things which are characterized by their autonomously communicating a message, DNA (Shannon, information) is the hydrogen bond.

The hydrogen bond is what gives the DNA its geometry, the double helix, and binds the message the living thing communicates within itself, ergo be alive in itself ("hath life.") (For more, I strongly recommend reading Myers’ thoughts on the geometry of biological information content.)

Every thing which is biologically (physically) alive is autonomously communicating a message that constitutes what it is – a particular daffodil, a particular dog, a particular human.

There is no biological life without the communication of that message. That is why the Urey/Miller experiments could get no further than amino acids, their experiments were blind to information theory (communication, Shannon.) And that is why Wimmer succeeded in creating the polio virus in the laboratory. Wimmer started with the message itself, e.g. polio RNA off the internet which he structured geometrically by synthesizing it and then upon introducing the message to cell-free juice, the virus replicated itself, i.e. transmitted the message.

Complexity issues – particularly William’s inversely causal meta-information – are extremely persuasive in the crevo debates.

But the poison pill to abiogenesis in my view is the communication itself, Shannon’s mathematical theory of communication.

In other words, there is no naturalistic explanation for how or why communications would arise spontaneously in a physico-chemical environment.

Our new Spiritual life is also a communication directly from God. We are biologically and spiritually a message being communicated.

In biological life, that communication is autonomous. In Spiritual life, that communication is not autonomous.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:4-5

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19

Again,

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. - John 3:5-7

To God be the glory!