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To: Focault's Pendulum
The pre planning for the invasion of Japan estimated 20,000 US casualties.

Truman's decision to drop the two atomic weapons was largely based on this information.

Truman was not locked into this false dichotmy. There was always a third choice: a conditional surrender. The chief sticking point from beginning to end was the Japanese insistence that they keep the emperor. Prior to the dropping of the bombs, however, the Truman administration summarily rejected pursuing that option. Even after the dropping of the second bomb, the Japanese STILL insisted on this condition.

Finally after Nagaskaki, Truman overrode his bitter end New Deal advisors who wanted an unconditional surrender, and agreed to accept the Japanese condition. Thus the final surrender was NOT unconditional. Had he pursued the option of a conditional at the beginning, he could have avoided both the mass slaughter of innocents AND an invasion.

Even if we assume that you are right, however, dropping the bombs would still be evil. Under the long established rules of war it is immoral to INTENTIONALLY target babies, little old ladies, and other non-combatants. Collateral damange is unavoidable but intentional targeting is beyond the rules of war. If an enemy did it to us or our allies during war. we would not hesitate to later prosecute them for war crimes.

As a sidelight, let me point out the Nagasaki was the heart of traditional Japanese Christianity. The Christians had held on to their faith despite tremdendous pressure for hundreds of years....only to be slaughtered by fellow Christians.

22 posted on 10/11/2009 10:30:58 AM PDT by Captain Kirk
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To: Captain Kirk
The morality of whether to drop the A-bombs or not is something we agonise over now, but it was an irrelevent argument at the time

The rules of just war were well established in 1945. Under those rules, it is immoral to INTENTIONALLY target civilians for slaugther.

24 posted on 10/11/2009 10:33:19 AM PDT by Captain Kirk
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To: Captain Kirk

>>> Truman was not locked into this false dichotmy. There was always a third choice: a conditional surrender. The chief sticking point from beginning to end was the Japanese insistence that they keep the emperor. Prior to the dropping of the bombs, however, the Truman administration summarily rejected pursuing that option. Even after the dropping of the second bomb, the Japanese STILL insisted on this condition. <<<

Truman had several choices; for example, he could have continued the blockade of the Japanese islands and starved the Japanese out. Luckily for the Japanese and for us, that option was not chosen.

However, speaking of “false dichotomies,” the one you make between unconditional surrender/conditional surrender certainly counts as one. Even though US policy since Cairo had been that of unconditional surrender, all parties knew that there were obvious conditions being presented to the Japanese Imperial Gov’t by the US (the wonders of diplomatic language never cease to amaze me). And this was true up to the Potsdam Declaration of 26 July 1945.

>>> Had he pursued the option of a conditional at the beginning, he could have avoided both the mass slaughter of innocents AND an invasion. <<<

Both FDR and Truman pursued surrender with conditions. The Japanese Imperial Gov’t didn’t like those conditions, and prepared for a “final conflict” on the Japanese home islands. Yes, the deaths at Tokyo, Horishima, and Nagasaki could have been avoided — if the Japanese had surrendered earlier instead of intentionally sacrificing their “subjects” in an attempt to gain a better post-war outcome.

>>> Even if we assume that you are right, however, dropping the bombs would still be evil. Under the long established rules of war it is immoral to INTENTIONALLY target babies, little old ladies, and other non-combatants. Collateral damange is unavoidable but intentional targeting is beyond the rules of war. If an enemy did it to us or our allies during war. we would not hesitate to later prosecute them for war crimes. <<<

Evil? Nonsense!

If the Japanese Imperial Gov’t didn’t want us to target cities like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they should have made sure that these cities didn’t possess war factories, naval shipping yards and army barracks. Possession of such facilities made these cities legitimate targets for attack given the rules of war followed at the time.

There was NO intentional attack on Japanese civilians. Your SLANDER of US Army forces who carried out the aerial attack on Japan is reprehensible.

>>> As a sidelight, let me point out the Nagasaki was the heart of traditional Japanese Christianity. The Christians had held on to their faith despite tremdendous pressure for hundreds of years....only to be slaughtered by fellow Christians. <<<

As another sidelight, there used to be a certain nutter on FR who would post that Truman intentionally targeted the Christians of Nagasaki when that city was nuked. Something about Truman being part of some Freemason conspiracy against Christians, I seem to recall. You wouldn’t be part of an attempt to revive an old nutter tradition, would you?

Why do you continue to regurgitate old lying Soviet agitprop about the Pacific War (from the old Soviet toadies like Gar Alperovitz)? The old Soviet Union’s been gone for almost 20 years.


55 posted on 10/11/2009 11:46:13 AM PDT by Poe White Trash (Wake up!)
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