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To: RAO1125

“We’re beginning the era of libertarianism.”

That means we’re beginning another era of appeasement, crime, drug abuse, juvenile delinquency, family breakdown — our society disintegrating internally while external threats move in for the kill.

Libertarians are a lot like socialists — they think man is born good, and institutions corrupt him. They only differ on the boogeyman— the socialists think it is the corporations, while libertarians blame the state. Conservatives, both paleo and neo, realize that man is born evil, and institutions are our only hope to make him halfway good.

Once one realize what the religious call “Original Sin” — man’s tragic weakness for evil — one will be far less trusting of tyrants, terrorists, drug dealers, violent criminals, and even the market economy to some extent.

If Kristol should be remembered for anything, it should be for his analysis of counterculture. Capitalism, through its productivity, makes it seem like Mickey Mouse happy-endings are a law of nature. This creates the entitlement mentality that thinks that prosperity and peace don’t come with sacrifice. The bourgeois citizen is replaced with the bourgeois consumer, who, living in a world without risk, wants everything and wants it now, as if our actions (and inactions!) do not come with consequences.

Kristol is right. Think about it. The most capitalist areas of the country coincidentally have the most socialist voters.


128 posted on 09/18/2009 9:39:32 PM PDT by JHBowden (Keep the Change!)
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To: JHBowden
Libertarians are a lot like socialists — they think man is born good, and institutions corrupt him. They only differ on the boogeyman— the socialists think it is the corporations, while libertarians blame the state. Conservatives, both paleo and neo, realize that man is born evil, and institutions are our only hope to make him halfway good.

You seem to think all people are the same. I think that there is a spectrum, with some people reasonably good (i.e. of sufficiently good character that they will behave honestly even when nobody is looking), some people are criminal, and those in the middle will be reasonably good, but prone to cheat around the edges.

The legitimate purpose of the State is to punish violence and dishonesty, but not to enforce charity.

Additionally, for "institutions" to be effective in "making him halfway good", the institutions need to be staffed by good people. Experience shows that institutions with power over peoples lives tend to attract people who WANT power over others, and not for good reasons. As long as we do not have angels to staff the State, it is good to limit the State's power to do harm.

138 posted on 09/19/2009 9:27:51 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (Public healthcare looks like it will work as well as public housing did.)
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To: JHBowden; PapaBear3625
The most capitalist areas of the country coincidentally have the most socialist voters

Interesting but that has more to do with geography and proximity to European and Asian immigration disembarkation points or just junctions of trade than it does the peoples.

I have enjoyed both your posts here. From raising 5 kids and observing the world for 52 years and studying classical humanities it is my opinion we are born quite self centered though not evil. There is good in most of us and needs cultivating.

I think government if here to serve us and create collective security and in a theoretical sense to promote what is innate in all of us to further the rights in life the Founders wrote about. Of course that is an open definition.

Who nails the nature of man....Christ. Hobbes and Socrates after that.

139 posted on 09/19/2009 10:33:49 AM PDT by wardaddy (Obama, you suck Bro and we are kicking your butt for now anyhow)
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To: JHBowden

Wow... where to begin on that one? You’re like a walking talking point, aren’t ya?

Appeasement: Unlike the Dems and Repubs who either bribe (North Korea), obliterate (Iraq, Kosovo) or adopt a policy of isolation (Cuba), libertarians believe in commerce with all nations. It is illogical to get involved in interventionism when it’s failed so many times in the past.

Crime: Gotta be more specific here. I’ve never met serious libertarians who are pro-crime. Those are called anarchists.

Drug Abuse: Since the War on Drugs (mmm, love me some big government there) has been a total failure and waste of taxpayer money, and considering how marijuana was made illegal in the first place (by the pulp and paper industry via the Democrats) and how we treat similar products such as alcohol and tobacco, does it not make sense to classify marijuana in the same category? Again, I’ve yet to meet serious small l libertarians who advocate actual drugs be made available on the street. But maybe you know some that think you should be able to buy bags of heroin at Wal-Mart.

Juvenile Delinquency: I don’t even know what you’re talking about her. Perhaps because we are in favor of private schools and home schooling instead of the failed public education system?

Family Breakdown: Again, I don’t know what you’re referring to.

And again, you’ve failed miserably to understand the libertarian philosophy. We don’t view simply the state as bad and the corporation good. Both usually suck. It’s centralized power that is the enemy. Fascism and socialism both lead to the same endgame: totalitarianism. That’s what people are waking up to.


159 posted on 09/19/2009 5:01:46 PM PDT by RAO1125 (Neoconservatism:Failed. Socialism:Failing (again). Next up: Libertarianism)
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