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To: AussieJoe; newfreep; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
Then who created god?....

God is an entity, not a thing, like the material universe. Beyond that, you could keep going on forever about who created the one who created, ad nauseum. Since we are bound by time and space, it is beyond our comprehension that nobody needed to create God.

Whatever was the highest order of creative entities is the one that we would call God, the first mover. If something created God, He wouldn't be God, he'd just be a created being.

What doesn’t work for me is that the complexity of DNA or the ‘perfect balance’ of the universe must have been created because of their complexity and balance, yet the far more complex and perfect God has no creator..... Either perfection and complexity requires a creator or it doesn’t.

What doesn't work either is rejecting creation because of a lack of explanation of where God came from, but accepting that the universe created itself, with no explanation of where it came from.

30 posted on 09/16/2009 6:36:10 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom; betty boop; AussieJoe; newfreep; GodGunsGuts
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear sister in Christ!

Whenever a poster wants to know who created or caused God, I love to point out that there are no natural laws without space/time and physical causality. And further that inflationary theory is not creation ex nihilo.

Mathematically, the dimension of a space is the minimum number of coordinates (axes) necessary to identify a point within the space.

A space of zero dimensions is a point; one dimension, a line, two dimensions, a plane; three, a cube, etc. A sphere such as the earth requires two coordinates, longitude and latitude.

That is the geometry of it. In zero dimensions, the mathematical point is indivisible.

It is not nothing. It is a spatial point.

In ex nihilo Creation, the dimensions are not merely zero, they are null, dimensions do not exist at all. There is no space and no time. Period.

There is no mathematical point, no volume, no content, no scalar quantities. Ex nihilo doesn’t exist in relationship to anything else; there is nothing.

In an existing physical space, each point (e.g. particle) can be parameterized by a quantity such as mass. The parameter (e.g. a specific quantity within the range of possible quantities) is in effect another descriptor or quasi-dimension that uniquely identifies the point within the space.

Moreover, if the quantity of the parameter changes for a point, then a time dimension is invoked. For example, at one moment the point value is “0” and the next it is “1”.

Wave propagation cannot occur in null dimensions nor can it occur in zero spatial dimensions, a mathematical point; a dimension of time is required for any fluctuation in a parameter value at a point.

But there’s more. Wave propagation must also have a spatial/temporal relation from cause point to effect point, i.e. physical causation.

For instance “0” at point nt causes “1” at point n+1t+1 and “1” at point nt etc..

Obviously, physical wave propagation cannot precede space/time and physical causality.

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

Both space and time are required for physical causation.

All physical cosmologies (inflationary theory, cyclic, imaginary time, multi-verse, ekpyrotic, etc.) require space and time for physical causality.

There is no ex nihilo explanation for the beginning of real space and real time and therefore physical causality.

And because, since the 1960’s forward, measurements of the cosmic microwave background radiation consistently agree that the universe is expanding – that there was a beginning of real space and real time – we know that there was creation ex nihilo.

Only God can be the uncaused cause, The Creator.

Space, time and causation are not properties of God the Creator.

They are properties of the Creation.

God is uncaused, timeless and spaceless. He created causation, time and space.

Indeed, it is so obvious that God is the Creator ex nihilo that everyone will be held accountable for noticing.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

God is not a hypothesis. He lives.

His Name is I AM.


57 posted on 09/16/2009 10:56:24 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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