'Monogamous' Gays Can Serve in ELCA (Largest Lutheran Denomination Split on Divisive Issue)

Washington Post ^ | 8/21/2009 | jacqueline Salmon

[SeekAndFind]

Leaders of the nation's biggest Lutheran denomination voted Friday to allow gays in committed relationships to serve as clergy in the church -- making it one of the largest Christian denominations in the country to significantly open the pulpit to gays.

Previously, only celibate gays were permitted to serve as clergy in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, a denomination of 4.8 million members. But delegates to a church assembly voted 559-451 to allow gays in "life-long, monogamous" relationships to serve as clergy and professional lay leaders in the church.

The vote is the culmination of a years-long process in the ELCA, and was accompanied by plenty of emotion at the convention in Minneapolis. After standing in long lines to reach microphones during debates that extended all day, some delegates shook and others cried as they expressed their opposition or support of the measure.

Quoting the Bible and denomination founder Martin Luther, delegates sought to place the decision within their interpretation of their Lutheran faith.

"We live today with an understanding of homosexuality that did not exist in Jesus' time and culture," Tim Mumm, a lay delegate from Wisconsin and supporter of Lutherans Concerned, an gay-rights organization, said during the debate. "We are responding to something that the writers of Scripture could not have understood."

But other said the recommendations weaken the Biblical standards of the church.

"As Luther taught us, Scripture does not have a wax nose," said the Rev. Ryan Mills, a delegate representing Texas and Louisana. "It cannot be twisted into anything we want it to say. But that's just what we're doing with these following recommendations."

Conservatives tried to derail the vote, losing a ballot that would have required a supermajority of two-thirds to approve the proposal. They lost a similar vote earlier in the week.

[SoConPubbie]

Read Post #20

[SoConPubbie]

What is your argument against this line of reasoning ?

Those who are in Sin, should not be in the pulpit. Those who call themselves Homosexuals, whether or not they are "active" homosexuals, are still living in sin outside the grace of God.

Or have you forgotten what Jesus said in the Beatitudes?

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

[HiTech RedNeck]

One has to be careful to not conflate “being a homosexual” with “experiencing a certain profile of temptation.” Some miraculously find themselves temptation free, others have a more difficult row to hoe. To call the latter non believers of necessity, is an untruth and an insult to God.

[SoConPubbie]

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

My point being that it is not the action that is the sin in God's eyes, but the desire. This goes for Adultery, Homosexuality, Lying, Murder etc.

[SoConPubbie]

True, however, don't confuse a born-again ex-homosexual, free from his sin, with a "monogomous" or inactive Homosexual.

As posted earlier in this thread, it is not the action that makes a sin objectionable to God, but the desire itself.

Temptation is not the desire to sin, but as merriam-webster states:
Tempt:
1 : to entice to do wrong by promise of pleasure or gain

Those homosexuals still suffering from the evil, ugly desire that is the hallmark of that condition, are not saved and are not living in the Grace of God. They are still unregenerated sinners in need of forgiveness and salvation.

[HiTech RedNeck]

I fear it’s you who are in danger of falling into the confusion, and condemning those tempted against their will.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Let me point out that there are thoughts against one’s will, and thoughts with one’s will. You are condemning the tempted.

[SoConPubbie]

Let me point out that there are thoughts against one’s will, and thoughts with one’s will. You are condemning the tempted.

Quite the opposite.

I totally agree with that statement.

Those still suffering with the Desire of Homosexuality are those living outside the Grace of God. Suffering from temptations are not necessarily since Temptation comes to all men/women.

[SoConPubbie]

Those whom God saves, he changes, else the Old Testament dispensation is still in play and the Death of Christ was of no avail.

[HiTech RedNeck]

I’m sorry, but it is a truth that we still live in the old tent until glory. THEN, we will “be changed” in entirety. You only fool yourselves and harm your own reward to pretend otherwise.

[HiTech RedNeck]

You are wrong. I am not even going to say I agree to disagree, you are so wrong.

[Pining_4_TX]

“Since when is the clearly understood Word of God put “up to a vote?”

It has been happening ever since the time of Adam and Eve when the serpent basically said to Eve that God really didn’t mean what He said. It’s been downhill from there.

People have always tried to re-make God to suit themselves.

[SoConPubbie]

You are wrong. I am not even going to say I agree to disagree, you are so wrong.

Christ came not only to forgive sins, but to save sinners from their sins.

What glory is their for God to simply forgive a sinner over and over and over for continually committing the same crime against him?

A perfect God would only design a perfect salvation, one which forgives and saves makes the man/woman who submits to God's plan of salvation a new creation or "born again".

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

[aShepard]

Ya know, these days it's gotta be difficult to be a monogamous gay guy! After awhile a fine bung-hole just kinda becomes - well just another bung-hole

Ya kind'a need to get out and suck face with another whiskered lover, and experience the joy of "change", with "hope" that your new lover can give to your life new experience in your quest for true love!

[SoConPubbie]

I’m sorry, but it is a truth that we still live in the old tent until glory. THEN, we will “be changed” in entirety. You only fool yourselves and harm your own reward to pretend otherwise.

Don't confuse being in this body and the tempations that come from that condition with sinning friend. You do so to the peril of your own soul. Christ came to free us from our sinful nature, not to keep us chained to it and continually sinning and continually as a result having to repent.

Here is what the Apostle John had to say about Sinning with respect to our soul's condition:

1 John 2

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

[Steelers6]

They might as well change the name of their organization, they are not Evangelicals, they are Reprobates.

[Steelers6]

If your in the ELCA, you should tell your church we had better join the Missouri or the other Synod or we will move to a Lutheran Church that is in those Synods.

[TurtleUp]

They got it right ... almost. The correct answer would be that abstinent gays could serve.

[SeekAndFind]

They got it right ... almost. The correct answer would be that abstinent gays could serve.

I CONCUR.

[SeekAndFind]

Homosexuality is an abomination in God’s eyes.

But so is lust... are you going to tell me that heterosxual clergymen are not tempted by lust for other women ?

We are all tempted. What makes us sin is FALLING FOR TEMPTATION.

Abstinent gays are tempted in a different way, as long as they do not fall into temptation and ACT on their lust, they should be allowed to serve.