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To: dcwusmc
Now, in wartime, the rules can change a bit.

Your rules cannot be both inflexible and flexible. The individual cannot be sovereign AND be overruleable at the same time.

It’s not and I said so.

Okay, I didn't see that in your earlier post, but do see it in #249 and #250.

If you cannot convince people to buy bonds or fund the defense voluntarily

That was just one example of expenses authorized by the Constitution. (There are several others specifically mentioned and implied.) Surely you don't think the founders expected all the expenses authorized by the Constitution would be funded by donations from generous citizens! :-)

They didn't, which is why they authorized Congress to take some of your money. (Article 1, Section 8.) Was this something else they got wrong?

I understand and share your affinity for liberty. But surely you can see by now that liberty has its limits, those limits varying with varying circumstances. Defending liberty demands more from us than just railing against abuses of power. And constructing a hyper-individualist state does as much to guarantee the loss of liberty as constructing a despotic tyranny. The only difference is that one is a slow death.

Just as a man seeks protection by sacrificing some solitude and independence and joining himself with others, so liberty is protected by being blended with other elements.

Inflexible, absolute liberty is only available to the man who lives alone on an island. The rest of mankind must compromise here and there in order for the societies we're a part of to function and survive. And as we've seen so plainly in the last century and already in this one, our free, Western societies are called upon frequently to protect liberty.
251 posted on 08/22/2009 8:51:49 PM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: LearsFool

The greatness of a nation is formed from the virtue of its liberty and integrity of its authority.

Authority without liberty is tyranny, while liberty without authority is anarchy.

In the case of discriminating which substances might be allowed as legitimate intoxicants, we obviously recognize many, if not most intoxicants first effect our ability to perceive and to discern. Unlike many other behaviors, but similar to many lusts, drug use for intoxication must be legislated with bounds placed to identify how such behavior is handled by the society legitimately.

In regards to the clumsy arguments against criminalization of some drugs because it violates free will and our liberty, the Puritans actually had some fairly rigorous studies regarding freedom, liberty, and legislation. One approach is that the regulation of our freedom to protect us from damages caused by such freedom should not exceed the damages of the freedom itself.

In the counterarguments such as, “the Prohibition didn’t work”, the opponent to criminalization of some behaviors misses the purpose of legal systems. I guess there are probably as many legalists out there who foolishly believe that outlawing behavior will eliminate such behavior, just as there are those who think criminalization of behavior fails because people still miss the mark and commit such behaviors.


254 posted on 08/22/2009 9:32:31 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: LearsFool

FWIW, I returned from Mexico yesterday and their leadership position amongst many prominent businessmen is that all of the violence associated with the drugs has been at the cartel level and not aimed at turistas, using the logic that the tourists provide their lifeblood, and it would be foolish to target any tourists by drug runners.

On the other hand, after our car broke down, and spending 4 hours in Taxis going through very circuitous routes in the barrios, with several locals on either side of me debating how much I was worth and settling on the remnants of my wallet after we got the car running again (with the same parts on an electrical glitch), I can say they weren’t there to kill me, and they did work to get me going again. It’s just a matter of perspective, you see, as to what that effort is worth.

A part which I could pick off the shelf in SoCA for $36, was available from 2 cities away for $289 in Mexico, or in my case, whatever was in my wallet after they tried a used part, then replaced the original back into the engine, but at least it ran long enough fro me to get back into a secure area.

The crime tends to happen in the areas more prone to disagreements, such as in bars, heated arguments, etc, so avoiding car repair costs is a reasonable method of avoiding trouble.

In Mexicali, where the unemployment rate is 50% and in many manual labor and service sector jobs where the pay is $200/mo, $20 goes a long way.

Cigars are being sold at $10 a piece, then bartered down to about $5 apiece. Same Mexican bargaining system they are accustomed to using, except there no longer are any real talented craftsmen or artists producing quality product.

They buy their stuff from Costco, Home Depot, and WalMart for their quality kitsch.

Best buy I made was for some $4/lb smoked tuna from a Pescador.

Thank God they weren’t trying to sell drugs.

I later spoke to some other Americans who recently were ticketed $1000 for having a pet poodle in their front seat and argued it down to $100. Taxi drivers say the cops are no good, but then again the taxi drivers don’t obey any traffic laws anyways. Go figure.


256 posted on 08/22/2009 10:09:41 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: LearsFool

In understanding that someone who wishes to participate in society must, of necessity, curb some of his PUBLIC behaviors, I do not give up anything to those who would curb his PRIVATE, non-coercive behaviors. Nor is there a conflict in saying that one’s private property is inviolate during peacetime, but may, with appropriate safeguards regarding both compensation for its loss of use and its return when hostilities cease, be taken for the duration. And, yes, in wartime, things CAN change and necessarily MUST do so if that society is to prevail in the conflict. HOWEVER, once that happens, the regular peacetime rules MUST be reinstated. There will be adjustments, of course, to account for the loss of manpower due to casualties and the amount of treasure spent winning the war, but these things are able to be overcome, as we have seen in past wars.

I see nothing in Article 1, Section 8 which would require very much more money than could be raised as I have suggested, excepting during war time. That’s because over ninety percent of that FedGov does is NOT AUTHORIZED by the Constitution. So tariffs, contributions from the States and such things would surely suffice.

Oh, and one thing that would save TONS of money is keeping our defense for our OWN borders. Not spending the lives of our youth and our treasure defending the whole world. There is definitely no authority for that granted. Taking a war to the enemy, that is surely the only sensible thing to do. But keeping troops stationed in 170 different countries around the world? No way, Jose! And keeping troops stationed in a country we’ve vanquished? Again, NO WAY. We accept their offer to pay reparations for the evil they’ve done us and go home. What’s so hard about that? Rebuilding a toppled government is the sole business and function of the nation whose ass we just whipped. With the SOLE caveat that they had best NOT set up a government like the one we just took down for them, one that would attack US again.


257 posted on 08/22/2009 10:38:54 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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