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To: rhema
White House and members of the mainstream media rushed to dismiss Palin's statement as "nuts,"
Right. Exactly. Its "nuts" as there is nothing specific in HR 3200 about a 'Death Panel'.

Then again, Hitler and Himmler never put down in writing the plans for 'The final Solution' either. It was all done with a wink and a nod and code speak.

'Death Camps for undesirables', responded Herr Hitler, 'utterly preposterous'!
Naturally, he said that in German.
8 posted on 08/12/2009 5:59:41 AM PDT by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits)
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To: Condor51
"Then again, Hitler and Himmler never put down in writing the plans for 'The final Solution' either. It was all done with a wink and a nod and code speak.

'Death Camps for undesirables', responded Herr Hitler, 'utterly preposterous'!"

Actually, there were the Wannasee Protocols.

14 posted on 08/12/2009 6:07:03 AM PDT by Redleg Duke ("Don't fire unless fired upon, but it they mean to have a war, let it begin here." J Parker, 1775)
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To: Condor51

Here is a clue- this part of the bill describes processes and procedures to OBTAIN life-sustaining treatments. It’s an opt-in, your “coalition of stake holders” acting in accordance with applicable state Law (Like Oregon’s) decide whether you get life-sustaining treatment. What if, at the end of the process, the stakeholders (including you, you have a voice, but the insurance provider has the money and the doctors have the tools) it’s decided that you don’t get the Enabling Order for Life-Sustaining Treatments? Gotta save that 30% end-of-life expense to make universal health care less expensive for all [that are still alive].

1 ‘‘(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of
2 orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar
3 orders, which shall include—
4 ‘‘(I) the reasons why the development of
5 such an order is beneficial to the individual and
6 the individual’s family and the reasons why
7 such an order should be updated periodically as
8 the health of the individual changes;
9 ‘‘(II) the information needed for an indi
10 vidual or legal surrogate to make informed deci
11 sions regarding the completion of such an
12 order; and
13 ‘‘(III) the identification of resources that
14 an individual may use to determine the require
15 ments of the State in which such individual re
16 sides so that the treatment wishes of that indi
17 vidual will be carried out if the individual is un
18 able to communicate those wishes, including re
19 quirements regarding the designation of a sur
20 rogate decisionmaker (also known as a health
21 care proxy).
22 ‘‘(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement
23 for explanations under clause (i) to consultations
24 furnished in a State—
1 ‘‘(I) in which all legal barriers have been
2 addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining
3 treatment to constitute a set of medical orders
4 respected across all care settings; and
5 ‘‘(II) that has in effect a program for or
6 ders for life sustaining treatment described in
7 clause (iii).
8 ‘‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
9 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
10 program that—
11 ‘‘(I) ensures such orders are standardized
12 and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
13 ‘‘(II) distributes or makes accessible such
14 orders to physicians and other health profes
15 sionals that (acting within the scope of the pro
16 fessional’s authority under State law) may sign
17 orders for life sustaining treatment;
18 ‘‘(III) provides training for health care
19 professionals across the continuum of care
20 about the goals and use of orders for life sus
21taining treatment; and
22 ‘‘(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake
23 holders includes representatives from emergency
24 medical services, emergency department physi
25 cians or nurses, state long-term care associa-
1 tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
2 agency responsible for senior services, state de
3 partment of health, state hospital association,
4 home health association, state bar association,
5 and state hospice association.
6 ‘‘(2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is—
7 ‘‘(A) a physician (as defined in subsection
8 (r)(1)); and
9 ‘‘(B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assist
10 ant who has the authority under State law to sign
11 orders for life sustaining treatments.


18 posted on 08/12/2009 6:14:42 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: Condor51
Right on!

The primary point of the Health Plan is that benefits will have to be rationed and a board will be established to accomplish that.

Ezekiel Emanuel's own words have described precisely what must happen when healthcare is allocated/rationed by the state...

"those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations-are to be socially guaranteed as basic."

"Conversely, services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia."

"A less obvious example Is is guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learning disabilities can read and learn to reason."**

When rationing is accomplished by the state, not by families desires to support their love ones, the rule for allocation will to the fittest first (as determined by the state) and to the less fit (again determined by the state) if anything remains.

Not only is there massive opportunity for political meddling (imagine "pay for play" injected into healthcare) but the biases of the party in power will bleed into the life and death decisions affecting the citizens.

That means that the "boards" will be "life panels" for those they favor and "death panels" for those they don't.

** Where Civic Republicanism and Deliberative Democracy Meet, Ezekiel J. Emanuel The Hastings Center pages 3-4

24 posted on 08/12/2009 6:30:09 AM PDT by SonOfDarkSkies ("Wherever politics tries...to do the work of God, it becomes...demonic." — Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: Condor51
Right on!

The primary point of the Health Plan is that benefits will have to be rationed and a board will be established to accomplish that.

Ezekiel Emanuel's own words have described precisely what must happen when healthcare is allocated/rationed by the state...

"those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations-are to be socially guaranteed as basic."

"Conversely, services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia."

"A less obvious example Is is guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learning disabilities can read and learn to reason."**

When rationing is accomplished by the state, not by families desires to support their love ones, the rule for allocation will to the fittest first (as determined by the state) and to the less fit (again determined by the state) if anything remains.

Not only is there massive opportunity for political meddling (imagine "pay for play" injected into healthcare) but the biases of the party in power will bleed into the life and death decisions affecting the citizens.

That means that the "boards" will be "life panels" for those they favor and "death panels" for those they don't.

** Where Civic Republicanism and Deliberative Democracy Meet, Ezekiel J. Emanuel The Hastings Center pages 3-4

25 posted on 08/12/2009 6:30:16 AM PDT by SonOfDarkSkies ("Wherever politics tries...to do the work of God, it becomes...demonic." — Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: Condor51

Unfortunately for citizens of Nazi Germany, Hitler made sure his opponents were crushed, vanquished or sent into exile. If there was anybody like Sarah Palin in Nazi Germany, she would have been soon exposed by an informer or by her own public proclamations, expeditiously sent to a concentration camp to languish or liquidated ASAP.

The only reason Sarah can carry so much weight with the American people now is NOT because of the beneficence of the American government or the Messiah but because of the Constitution that supersedes it which allows Sarah the opportunity to speak her mind as a free citizen without the threat of imprisonment or liquidation.

If Obama, the Far Left and its Marxist agenda is defeated, we owe it to the wisdom of the Founding Fathers who established a framework in which Americans could regain their freedom without resorting to violence and without the threat of totalitarian government suppression.


27 posted on 08/12/2009 6:35:23 AM PDT by techno
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To: Condor51
'Death Camps for undesirables', responded Herr Hitler, 'utterly preposterous'!

As he raised his eyebrows and gave Herr Himmler a "meaningful glance" and an ever-so-slight smile.

33 posted on 08/12/2009 8:55:04 AM PDT by Charles Martel ("Endeavor to persevere...")
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