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To: goodusername
“Why would saying that evolution is a natural (or even entirely natural) process preclude design or purpose?”

Naturalism by definition precludes design and purpose. What are termed “laws” are, under that understanding, no more than the physical characteristics of the universe.

Therefore Darwinism does preclude a designer with purpose, unless Darwinism is going to include belief in design and purpose ala the I.D. movement.

Of course Darwinism doesn't deal with the origin of such “laws” as these would have to be in operation before life's origin.

I find the statements about Darwinism and Christianity not excluding each other to make as much sense as saying atheism and belief in propitiatory sacrifice not excluding each other, and for the same reason.

111 posted on 08/05/2009 9:13:38 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

“Naturalism by definition precludes design and purpose. What are termed “laws” are, under that understanding, no more than the physical characteristics of the universe.”

—It sounds like you are talking about philosophical or metaphysical “naturalism”. That’s certainly not what is meant when one merely says that something is “natural”. There are plenty of things that even the most ardent Creationist/IDist believes are completely “natural”, such as theories of snowflake formation, but I’ve never heard it claimed that such theories are espousing atheism or “naturalism”, or that such theories preclude purpose or design.

“Therefore Darwinism does preclude a designer with purpose, unless Darwinism is going to include belief in design and purpose ala the I.D. movement.”

—To again use the snowflake analogy - is God carving out each snowflake individually, or did God design the laws of nature in such a way to create snowflakes naturally? Does the latter idea preclude design and purpose? It sounds odd to me to say that the idea of God designing the laws of nature for the purpose of creating us via Darwinian evolution precludes design and purpose.
The I.D. movement claims that the laws of nature are not “designed” in such a way to allow for Darwinian evolution (in other words, it would be like saying that the laws of nature are incapable of creating snowflakes, and so God would have to carve out each snowflake individually, or at least intervene in some way.)

“I find the statements about Darwinism and Christianity not excluding each other to make as much sense as saying atheism and belief in propitiatory sacrifice not excluding each other, and for the same reason.”

—Whether Darwinism contradicts Christianity depends on how the Bible is interpreted, which is up to the individual. But Darwinism doesn’t include or exclude intelligent design any more or less than any other theory.


186 posted on 08/06/2009 9:40:04 AM PDT by goodusername
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