Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: Jim Robinson
Your original post contains many very good ideas that I support. However, I cannot support the entire post.

While I share your deep frustration with the Republic's current direction, I do not support your call for "recalling and removing from office the President of the United States, the Vice President of the United States and all U.S. Senators and U.S. Representatives effective immediately." Such removal, as you have described it, has no provision under law. More importantly, I think your argument for removal may be flawed.

Your basic argument for removal--if I understand it correctly--is as follows:

1st Premise: "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government," [Declaration of Independence]

2nd Premise: "They [government] are acting without our consent." [your assertion in post #1]

Conclusion: The present government should be removed [your assertion, paraphrased from post #1]

The 2nd premise is only partially true. But, to the extent that it is true, it is consistent with the Founders' intentions, as I understand them. The weakness of the 2nd premise casts doubt upon the overall validity of your argument.

Specifically, regarding the truthful aspect of the 2nd premise: in a Republic of elected representatives, as opposed to a democracy, representatives sometimes act contrarily to the will of the public. This phenomenon is intentional (see Federalist No. 10, for example) and not unique to the present administration.

Regarding the dubious aspect of the 2nd premise: the present government has overall consent insofar as it has been duly elected in the vast majority if not all cases.

In summary, your conclusion may be unfounded due to the weakness of the 2nd premise.

I realize that my analysis is abstract and tightly constrained. However, I believe that trust in reason is preferable to the temptations of inflamed passions.

658 posted on 07/19/2009 4:47:23 PM PDT by matt1234
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


To: matt1234

Guess we’d better strengthen the 2nd premise then. It’s either that or fold our tents, take our lumps, go home and don our chains like good little serfs.

Thanks


660 posted on 07/19/2009 4:52:27 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/jimrobfr)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 658 | View Replies ]

To: matt1234

By the way, I was hoping some folks much smarter and more experienced than I would make suggestions for improving the concept.

Thanks again. That’s exactly the kind of constructive commentary I’m looking for.


663 posted on 07/19/2009 5:00:13 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/jimrobfr)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 658 | View Replies ]

To: matt1234
Specifically, regarding the truthful aspect of the 2nd premise: in a Republic of elected representatives, as opposed to a democracy, representatives sometimes act contrarily to the will of the public.

This is true and necessary in a republic but the contrary actions must always go towards upholding the Constitution.

What we have now is deliberate actions to "go around" the Constitution.

678 posted on 07/19/2009 5:54:22 PM PDT by JPJones (Who is Jim Thompson!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 658 | View Replies ]

To: matt1234
2nd Premise: "They [government] are acting without our consent." [your assertion in post #1] ... Regarding the dubious aspect of the 2nd premise: the present government has overall consent insofar as it has been duly elected in the vast majority if not all cases.

Eggs-ackly. 64 million people voted for Obama. That's the fly in the ointment for this whole complaint.The PEOPLE THEMSELVES SCREWED THE POOCH. Never mind that Obama was a lying sack of extrement who hid his radical associations and friends, who promised tax cuts for 95% of Americans and not the energy bill increases and tax increases that are in cap-n-trade and obama-care bills ... the fact is that the 64 million votes became Obama's 'mandate' to run roughshod on our liberties.

The only way to walk back the cat on an election like that is to win the next election. We need to get some portion of those 64 million to wake the hell up and come crawling to the rest of us asking for forgiveness for their stupidity and asking what we all can do to take America back for freedom.

700 posted on 07/19/2009 6:13:05 PM PDT by WOSG (Why is Obama trying to bankrupt America with $16 trillion in spending over the next 4 years?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 658 | View Replies ]

To: matt1234; Jim Robinson
2nd Premise: 'they [government] are acting without our consent.' [your assertion in post #1]

Well, of course, technically, they ARE acting with our consent.

The problem is, if I may draw an analogy, it's sort of like when one goes to a restaurant and hands the car keys to an attendant to park ones car.

When you hand the keys over you have given "consent" -- and TRUST -- to the attendant to park your car: not go for a joy ride all over the city and use your gas to do it!

So we need to find responsible and TRUSTWORTHY government servants to empower: through the election process.(brings up the philosopher, Diogenes, searching for an honest man)

Now, in lieu of finding AND electing such trustworthy individuals, what recourse do the people have but to remove the bums and "elect" themselves? -- if you know what I mean!

Of course, the above action even if "successful" can easily -- as history has often shown -- lead to societal chaos, followed by a worse dictatorship than the one that the people were originally facing.

Therefore, such recourse should ONLY be taken after exhausting all other PEACEFUL avenues of redress.

Having said that, I'm not sure Jim's Premises are wrong... it's just a mater of at what point do 'the people' throw the switch.

In the mean time the case for real change in government needs to be articulated to the American people.

A mass -- PEACEFUL -- rally, may be just the thing to illustrate just how many Americans share vital constitutional concerns about our present leadership.

STE=Q

740 posted on 07/19/2009 8:57:03 PM PDT by STE=Q ("These are the times that try men's souls" ... Thomas Paine)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 658 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson