Try telling that to these children
Posted on 07/09/2009 8:37:07 AM PDT by NYer
I haven’t read the encyclical yet, but will give you my somewhat-informed-Catholic opinion.
No system is perfect. 100% free-market capitalism is imperfect when it comes to the fair treatment of people. Capitalism needs moral people working ethically. In this world, that is rare indeed. (In my PERSONAL opinion - capitalism is the least harmful of all systems.)
The Church is against socialism, and does support personal property, personal wealth, etc.
I don’t think that the Church can or should endorse any single economic approach. The Church exists to save souls and must work within any political or economic structure on earth in order to do so.
We have global governing bodies that are emerging (which I think is tragic) and the Pope is trying to infuse Christianity into their very structure.
That said, I plan to read the encyclical and take his words into consideration. However, it was written for the whole world, not just the US. Africa, China, etc have very difference situations, and I will attempt to read it through their lens’s as well.
“As you have rightly concluded, Believers in Jesus, the Christ, will one day live under a theocracy and one-world government”
I don’t understand why some Christians believe this.
The heart of Yeshua’s teaching is NOT towards a society of “religious” rules, a Theocracy, but a society in which the spirit of the law IS IN MAN, MAN AT ONE WITH GOD.
I don’t see government or theocracy at all in that.
I must confess to frustration at times that His Awesomeness is such a learned theologian. People typically don’t digest things. Sometimes we need the Cliff Notes / Baltimore Catechism version.
I will come back to your post! This will be very helpful!
Not at all.If I get the time I'll get you some others that pre-dates Blessed Leo XIII'
There is a flow like this since the enlightenment
I don’t think the Pope suggests the the reformed UN regulate domestic taxation. It might regulate economic activity that is transnational in scope, but not the internal affairs of countries.
Let me add a general observation. The US politics are shaped by the economic realities in the US, which is still a very prosperous country. Our unemployed have a living standard most of the world would consider a windfall. So, American conservatism correctly views most taxation, especially for social programs, as waste or, worse, theft. When an American conservative reads about redistribution of wealth, he thinks of the government taking from an honest productive man to give to a couch potato who won’t work and is not in danger of starving to death.
However, if you take a larger view, you would see people literally starving, or armed thugs engaged in genocide. That is serious poverty. The Catholic teaching always was that rules of market exchange do not apply in extreme poverty. That is, of course, what the gospel teaches. Consider for example, the story of Dives (the name itself is ascribed to the rich man by tradition) and Lazarus (Luke 16). There, Dives is condemned for lack of compassion; no suggestion is made that Dives obtained his wealth dishonestly. The market made Dives rich and Lazarus poor, yet dives owed Lazarus food. This is a situation we are not accustomed to in America, but as we contemplate the global economy, we should reflect on that need for “gratuitousness” or “distributive justice” as the Pope calls it.
“Vix Pervenit” written by Pope Benedict XIV in 1745 is another good one to use as a warning on dishonest profit
ON USURY AND OTHER DISHONEST PROFIT
Vix Pervenit
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14vixpe.htm
Excerpt...The nature of the sin called usury has its proper place and origin in a loan contract. This financial contract between consenting parties demands, by its very nature, that one return to another only as much as he has received. The sin rests on the fact that sometimes the creditor desires more than he has given. Therefore he contends some gain is owed him beyond that which he loaned, but any gain which exceeds the amount he gave is illicit and usurious.II. One cannot condone the sin of usury by arguing that the gain is not great or excessive, but rather moderate or small; neither can it be condoned by arguing that the borrower is rich; nor even by arguing that the money borrowed is not left idle, but is spent usefully, either to increase one’s fortune, to purchase new estates, or to engage in business transactions. The law governing loans consists necessarily in the equality of what is given and returned; once the equality has been established, whoever demands more than that violates the terms of the loan. Therefore if one receives interest, he must make restitution according to the commutative bond of justice; its function in human contracts is to assure equality for each one. This law is to be observed in a holy manner. If not observed exactly, reparation must be made.III. By these remarks, however, We do not deny that at times together with the loan contract certain other titles-which are not at all intrinsic to the contract-may run parallel with it. From these other titles, entirely just and legitimate reasons arise to demand something over and above the amount due on the contract. Nor is it denied that it is very often possible for someone, by means of contracts differing entirely from loans, to spend and invest money legitimately either to provide oneself with an annual income or to engage in legitimate trade and business. From these types of contracts honest gain may be made.IV. There are many different contracts of this kind. In these contracts, if equality is not maintained, whatever is received over and above what is fair is a real injustice. Even though it may not fall under the precise rubric of usury (since all reciprocity, both open and hidden, is absent), restitution is obligated. Thus if everything is done correctly and weighed in the scales of justice, these same legitimate contracts suffice to provide a standard and a principle for engaging in commerce and fruitful business for the common good. Christian minds should not think that gainful commerce can flourish by usuries or other similar injustices. On the contrary We learn from divine Revelation that justice raises up nations; sin, however, makes nations miserable.
IV. There are many different contracts of this kind. In these contracts, if equality is not maintained, whatever is received over and above what is fair is a real injustice. Even though it may not fall under the precise rubric of usury (since all reciprocity, both open and hidden, is absent), restitution is obligated. Thus if everything is done correctly and weighed in the scales of justice, these same legitimate contracts suffice to provide a standard and a principle for engaging in commerce and fruitful business for the common good. Christian minds should not think that gainful commerce can flourish by usuries or other similar injustices. On the contrary We learn from divine Revelation that justice raises up nations; sin, however, makes nations miserable.
That is not the problem. The problem is the convoluted, overly wordy, double-speak of this Encyclical. The reason why lamestream journalism is bashing this doc. is because it's "bashible".
The thing is calling for a central “universal” authority but that is “restrained” by other states (Realistically, with different agendas). We already have “this” (United Nations), all the Pope wants is “this” (Convoluted tinkering) to have more teeth which is laughable given the org. is at war with Christ (Always will be until Christ comes back as King).
Leave the charity to the individuals not the corrupt states, the free States to serve as an example, and the Pope to go to war against the very organization he is promoting. Anything else is pie in the sky BS designed to stimulate the desperate minds of those who think this world can get together and become “one” (Without the true God). It starts with repentance but I am sorry to say, no one is buying, especially the UN.
The Pope needs to dust his sandals off in regards to the UN and concentrate on those who believe. The ones he desires to help will follow, we don't need a "super swell charitable authority system" to do that. God helps those who help themselves, world leaders should apply that to the nations they run.
Try telling that to these children
The heart is governed, for He has written His law upon the hearts of his people. That’s the way it works — but it is a society governed by the will of God. It will be all of us serving Him by our own free will — true theocracy and a united government of the people, by the people, for our God and Lord Jesus Christ.
How do you describe the rule of Christ when he comes again in glory? What is he? Who is he? In what manner will he return — as suffering servant or ruling King? How will He rule? How shall we be governed? No matter how you describe it, one way is a theocracy and one world government.
How much $$$ did tyrants who rule over them collect from our aid?
Who exactly is at fault?
When westerners got shafted they started revolutions and embraced the freedom that Christ brings.
Maybe instead of pimping an organization made up of tyrants we can try to liberate those that are starving BECAUSE of the tyrants/misguided beliefs that create perpetual starvation.
Christ did not bring the west freedom of legal abortion,pornography,mtv etc.... You're very confused of the true meaning of freedom, my friend
Listen to the words of the late Blessed Bishop Fulton Sheen keeping in mind it was written in 1943 and apply it to how much worse that so-called freedom you think the west embraced today.
Firstly, freedom is denied in education today. This may sound bizarre to some educators who have been shouting catch-words about freedom for decades. But I submit they are talking about license—not freedom. They are concerned with freedom from something; not freedom for something; they are interested only in freedom without law rather than freedom within the law. And the proof? Do not many educators today assume that evil and sin are due to ignorance, and that if we educate, we will remove evil? Do not others assume that evil is due to bad environment, bad teeth, or bad glands, and that an increase of material wealth will obliterate evil? Can they not see that these assumptions destroy freedom; for if evil is the result of ignorance, and not the result of a perverse use of freedom, then Hitler is an ignoramus, but he is not a villian?-Fulton Sheen
For the Pope to be suggesting non-Christian entities should help encourage this is patently wrong. Individual people giving monies from their heart is what God wants.
I'm surprised that the Pope doesn't appear to understand that.
Obedience to tyrants equals this 
Atrocities were committed throughout western history, but the kicker was that several times, society actually humbled themselves and repented. Apparently enough did to move society forward. Unfortunately only a few now are taking that humility seriously. Maybe it might change, I can only pray that we will.
What makes you think westerners are not profiting from this as well?
This is what happens when greed overcomes the world,but we don't just throw up are arms and say ..Oh well.."God helps those who help themselves" and not call out for the United Nations to reform
Exposing the tyrants just how you just did is the right thing to do-you seem to have a double standard for yourself and the Pope.
God certainly wants individual charity, but there is such a thing as distributive justice (see Dives and Lazarus again). Here is an example:
A transnational corporation operates a diamond mine in Africa. It gives work to many local Africans who otherwise would be poor. It also gives plenty opportunity for crime, given the nature of the industry. The African country is politically weak, the government is corrupt, but it is independent. Traditional agriculture is abandoned because the mining provides better income. A decade passes, the mine is empty, the corporation leaves, the country is without agriculture and without paycheck, with plenty of well trained and well armed thugs. In commutative justice the corporation owes them nothing. In distributive justice, the corporation is liable for disrupting the traditional culture and replacing it with nothing.
In another example, a transnational corporation closes a plant in Ohio and builds one in China. The taxpayer supports the Ohio town filled with the unemployed, another chunk of our industrial base is in a country hostile to us, but the corporation did not violate any rules of the market. It is however, liable for economic treason.
How do you propose these unethical corporate behaviors be rectified with private charity?
Like the Pope is supposed to rollo from free republic who seems to he is all knowing?
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