EMT Who Fought With Oklahoma Trooper Wants Officer to Lose Badge

AP (via FOX News) ^ | June 16, 2009

[Eddings]

OKLAHOMA CITY — The paramedic who scuffled with an Oklahoma highway police officer while a patient waited inside the ambulance says the trooper should lose his badge.

Maurice White Jr. said Tuesday on the CBS "Early Show" that trooper Daniel Martin was in a state of rage when he stopped his ambulance and totally disregarded the patient's safety.

Martin stopped the ambulance May 24 for failing to yield.

White says he got out of the ambulance to tell the trooper they were taking a patient to the hospital. The argument quickly escalated into a scuffle and Martin put White in a choke hold.

[gridlock]

Remember Harpseal? (Stay Armed, Stay Safe, Yorktown)

We used to go at it hammer and tong on these police brutality threads. That stubborn sunuvagun never gave an inch.

[muawiyah]

The second the cop heard the guy identify himself as an EMT the cop should have figured out he’d just unlawfully and improperly stopped an ambulance on a run.

[CharlesWayneCT]

At the time the police passed the ambulance, the ambulance was driving behind a car on the road. That car did not pull over to let the ambulance pass. Are you saying that car’s driver should have been arrested for failure to yield?

I just checked our state laws, and we are not required to pull over for any emergency vehicle unless it has lights on.

So while the cop overreacted, I don’t see why the cop should have assumed the ambulance had a reason to ignore his lights, or that the ambulance would have a patient on board.

Now, I’ve been a patient in the back of an ambulance, and the ambulance was not running with lights and sirens, and was in no hurry to get to the hospital, other than to get me out of the ambulance so they could get back to whatever they were doing before they were called to my house.

But I’m sure that if a cop had pulled up behind us, they would have pulled over to let them pass, and would hope that if the cop actually pulled US over and wanted to talk to the driver, that the EMTs in the back wouldn’t leave me to launch into an argument with the cop.

After all, I think the driver was perfectly capable of telling the officer that they pulled over as soon as they noticed, he didn’t purposely make a gesture, and they are transporting a patient so they really need to get going.

And I would hope the officer would have then left them go. If not, maybe then the EMT should have gotten out.

I understand why the EMT got out, and fully support the decision not to charge him with anything. I simply don’t believe the case against the cop is as clear-cut as others here think.

[muawiyah]

We had a case where a cop was doing a second job guarding an IHOP ~ next thing you know he managed to kill a passenger in a car he claimed was full of people who hadn't paid.

It's always so difficult to answer that question. I believe the last news (on a Freeper thread) was that the City of Alexandria Virginia ended up paying a couple of million in damages ~ 'cause they hadn't trained the cop properly.

This guy, according to a couple of other Freepers on various threads, has had OTHER problems!

[CharlesWayneCT]

Are you saying there is a ranking that places EMTs and Police Dogs in some order? Is it posted online? And if so, what does that have to do with whether an EMT has the authority to block a police officer who wants to talk to a driver of the ambulance? That would depend on where the EMT and Officer rank in the list, not the EMT and a police dog.

[CharlesWayneCT]

I would presume an ambulance stops more slowly as well because they are carrying a passenger and want to be gentle.

I’ve seen ambulances pass me on the highway going well over the posted limit, so either the law is different in my state, or they were breaking the law.

But according to what you are saying, it would be OK for an ambulance to speed and break that law, because who is going to stop them— not the police, who apparently are legally barred from interfering with the ambulance while it is breaking the law you say exists about speeding.

I guess the cop has to take the license, and follow them to their destination, and then maybe he can do his job when he has ascertained that there is no patient in the ambulance, and the ambulance isn’t being called to another scene.

[muawiyah]

What are Oklahoma's laws? There's another factor no one can seem to come to grips with and that's "who had the right of way". This is ON a reservation. No doubt there's an arrangement for the county civil government to make sure it's paved, but the Indians own 8 counties there (or did) although they've sold off quite a bit of land to farmers, and rented stuff out to others, and leased oil wells, etc.

So did the patrolman have the right of way over the RESERVATION's ambulance?

Remember, it's "their road", so what does the agreement between Oklahoma and the Tribe say?

[CharlesWayneCT]

BTW, searching via google isn’t giving me these ordered lists of “rank”, or these laws you are referencing about police not being able to pull over ambulances.

Maybe you could be so kind as to provide a link to them, since you apparently just looked it all up so you could be an expert on the subject.

Thanks,

[CharlesWayneCT]

Yes, and I think that was an appropriate decision.

The question is whether the officer should be fired, at least that is the topic of discussion here.

[muawiyah]

I would suggest that the cops have to assume they do not know what the ambulance is on call for but that the fact it's on the road is important ~ so they just write down the tag number and deal with their problems later.

Else you'd have people in the back dying of wounds while the cops write tickets.

[CharlesWayneCT]

When i was transported, it was because of back pain, and they were also very gentle, and even warned me when we drove over the railroad tracks.

[CharlesWayneCT]

So far, it doesn’t appear to have gone bad for the trooper, although he’s really losing the freeper thread discussion. Fortunately for him, the freeper thread has no direct bearing on his case.

This is a way for us to discuss the ramifications and laws about this event. We learn by talking about things. Even when people get belligerant and edgy.

[muawiyah]

Amazing laws out there ~ we've had Freepers claim that K9 dogs get to bite you and you aren't allowed to resist. Now if a regular cop were to just bite you ~ like, leap at you and bite your arm ~ I think you would be allowed a bit of self defense.

So, yes, the dogs rank higher than the patrolmen. The EMTs, since they also serve treat cops who get run down, shot or screwed up by the bad guys ~ they'd be second on the list. Cops are third.

Else we'd have criminals free to shoot the K9 dogs, willy nilly, and they are not smart enough to dodge bullets. And what would wounded cops do if they could no longer trust the EMTs?

[CharlesWayneCT]

The EMT seems to have gotten the same treatment here, and my guess is the same would be true for the driver, and the ambulance would have gotten to the hospital faster, if the EMT had not interfered.

Even if he had the right to interfere, even when a police officer is wrong, it is rarely beneficial to argue with a cop. It’s like fighting the referee — they may blow a call, but screaming at them about how they are screwing up will never get you anywhere.

I can’t believe it would have taken longer for the driver to tell the cop what was happening than how long it took to get the ambulance going again in this instance.

[muawiyah]

We’ve had about a dozen threads on this piece. Just read all of them and note the URLs of the references.

[CharlesWayneCT]

I remember that thread.

[CharlesWayneCT]

I certainly don’t know what special rules would govern the police operation on a public american highway which happens to run through indian land. I presume that our laws govern the road itself, but I don’t know that.

[CharlesWayneCT]

I would hope that the cop would have backed off as soon as the driver told him they were transporting a patient. Maybe not — the cop obviously was overreacting, and shouldn’t have bothered going after the ambulance at all.

[CharlesWayneCT]

Wow, a dozen? I only saw this one, and only posted a quick post (which got me labeled a racist, pretty funny that one). I didn’t expect to spend any more time on this thread, but it was too interesting a discussion.

[muawiyah]

Public roads that run through Indian reservations are all hedged around with all sorts of special deals and rules.

You remember when that Means fellow supposedly shot some FBI agents on one of the Sioux reservations ~ one of the seemingly minor issues was whether or not the FBI agents had authority to go "off the road".

Always thought that was intriguing but there it was ~ a question of right of way, and the dispute was dealt with among reservation Indian groups quite differently than it was dealt with by people who lived elsewhere.

I didn't get real concerned with the "right of way" problem in the areas where the Indians have actually sold off all their land until I tried to get some phone numbers ~ that's when I found that it's typical of such areas (reservations) for the Indians to own the phone companies, the cable tv cables, the power lines, the gas lines, the water lines, the sewer lines ~ and if they think you need a directory they'll tell you about it someday.

Some tribes are so secretive they won't tell you "where" someone lives ~ instead, they'll pass it around that you're looking for that someone and if they care to they'll come and see you.

I know a little bit about this part of Oklahoma from genealogical study ~ this is where the Chickasaw cut their horse loose and let it take them from the Southwest all the way to Oklahoma. There they encountered a group of white folks coming from the East who'd also cut their horse loose and followed it to the same spot.

Really strange place to go ~ never cutting my horse loose to find the trail Fur Shur.