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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical; GodGunsGuts; Fichori; tpanther; valkyry1; Mr. Silverback; ...
First of all, it hasn't been forced out of schools.

Sure it has. Through lawsuits by the ACLU. Look as what happens when someone even wants to put a sticker on a book about theories only being theories. No way it's being TAUGHT in schools.

There are lots of opportunities in schools to discuss creation, as I've described to you before.

Where? What classes? When? You've never provided examples of where in schools opportunities to discuss creation exist.

Second, you're starting in the wrong place. Consider how it gets into science class in the first place. It gets put in through the actions of politicians who want their religious belief given equal standing as a scientific theory. The litigants are trying to reverse that political action.

Revisionist history anyone? Doesn't the Scopes Trials ring a bell?

It wasn't like evolution was taught all along and then creation came along and forced it's way in and kicked out evolution. On the contrary.... creation was around long before the teaching of evolution. The Scopes trials were only the beginning of edging out creation, much less any mention of God, out of the schools.

It gets put in through the actions of politicians who want their religious belief given equal standing as a scientific theory. The litigants are trying to reverse that political action.

There was never any political action taken to insert creation in to public schools, but rather political action taken to keep it from being forced out.

You're making it sound like putting in religious beliefs is something new in education and that it ever managed to get forced in by the misuse of the judiciary. Fine. Show me from history that creation wasn't in the public schools until it was forced in by litigation.

Religion has never been successful in making inroads into public education through the courts. Pretending that it has shows a level of delusion about history that is mind boggling.

You might also ask yourself why the litigation generally succeeds.

I know why the litigation succeeds. Because the ACLU has its cronies on the bench and the leftist, God hating liberals sue schools which can't afford it and the schools lose because it's cheaper to capitulate than to defend against the lawsuit.

It succeeds because of leftist God hating organizations like the NEA have a stranglehold on public education.

140 posted on 06/10/2009 11:28:59 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
You've never provided examples of where in schools opportunities to discuss creation exist.

It was here. To refresh your memory:

--The Department of Education, drawing on numerous court cases, issued a "Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools" in 2003. Among other things, it said

students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate," and the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression."...For example, "nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Likewise, local school authorities...may not structure or administer such rules to discriminate against student prayer or religious speech...
Students may pray when not engaged in school activities or instruction, subject to the same rules designed to prevent material disruption of the educational program that are applied to other privately initiated expressive activities. Among other things, students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray or study religious materials with fellow students during recess, the lunch hour, or other noninstructional time to the same extent that they may engage in nonreligious activities....Students may organize prayer groups, religious clubs, and "see you at the pole" gatherings before school to the same extent that students are permitted to organize other non-curricular student activities groups. Such groups must be given the same access to school facilities for assembling as is given to other non-curricular groups, without discrimination because of the religious content of their expression....where student groups that meet for nonreligious activities are permitted to advertise or announce their meetings—for example, by advertising in a student newspaper, making announcements on a student activities bulletin board or public address system, or handing out leaflets—school authorities may not discriminate against groups who meet to pray.
So students can pray on their own, pray together, pray out loud, read the Bible, organize prayer groups, and meet before school to pray, and they can use school facilities for prayer and announce their prayer meetings over the P.A. system. And then, of course, there are comparative religion and philosophy classes. Is that really not enough opportunity to discuss creation in schools?

? Doesn't the Scopes Trials ring a bell?

Uh, yeah. That was the one where a teacher was charged with violating a law against teaching evolution. A law passed by the Tennessee legislature--a political act.

There was never any political action taken to insert creation in to public schools,

In Georgia, the school board mandated those stickers. The school board in Dover mandated the addition of intelligent design to the curriculum. School boards are political bodies, and those were political actions.

Religion has never been successful in making inroads into public education through the courts.

I never said it had been. You seem to think that only the courts count as political.

145 posted on 06/10/2009 12:18:43 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: metmom
I know why the litigation succeeds. Because the ACLU has its cronies on the bench and the leftist, God hating liberals sue schools which can't afford it and the schools lose because it's cheaper to capitulate than to defend against the lawsuit.

It succeeds because of leftist God hating organizations like the NEA have a stranglehold on public education.

As CLEARLY evidenced by the Georgia ACLU threatening the Newton co. Georgia school board with removing Christmas from the school calendar, or face legal action.

It's not just science class, liberals are continually breaking the law and subverting the constitution left and right. The question isn't the Constitution or the law, it's how many ways liberals attack it on a daily basis.

On a place like FR it's rather comical to see these liberals lying about the facts here, as if no one's noticing!

155 posted on 06/10/2009 1:25:42 PM PDT by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for g!ood men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: metmom
Second, you're starting in the wrong place. Consider how it gets into science class in the first place. It gets put in through the actions of politicians who want their religious belief given equal standing as a scientific theory. The litigants are trying to reverse that political action.

Revisionist history anyone? Doesn't the Scopes Trials ring a bell?

Loud and clear

Tenn. HB 185, 1925(Butler act):
"That it shall be unlawful for any teacher in any of the Universities, Normals and all other public schools of the State which are supported in whole or in part by the public school funds of the State, to teach any theory that denies the Story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible, and to teach instead that man has descended from a lower order of animals."
It's like evolution was taught all along and then creation came along and forced it's way in and kicked out evolution
173 posted on 06/10/2009 7:30:33 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (a competent small government conservative is good enough for government work)
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