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Posted on 06/06/2009 6:24:20 AM PDT by Zakeet
ping
Sometimes the judgment of God is brought about by evil acts. As some of you guys have been preaching to me for the last decade, nothing happens that isn't ordained of by God. Do you believe your own words? I have oft seen the following verse quoted theologically, but are you willing to quote from it on a practical basis? Is it applicable to this situation?
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:6-7 KJV)
If anything, Tiller and Roeder serves to show to what level we can sink if it were not for God's substaining hand.
Some people sink lower than others. There are levels of evil. I can only pray that there are levels of punishment in hell.
Tiller..................... 60,000
Buchenwald........ 56,000
Dachau................. 36,000
Osama Bin Laden...3500
Ted Bundy...................35
Roeder ...........................1
I don't look at Roeder's actions as "reciprocity" but as a form of preventative action. There is no doubt in my mind that Tiller was scheduled on Monday to kill at least 3 or 4 innocent children (one of them possibly the person chosen by God to lead this nation into another Great Awakening).
The state had outlawed most of these procedures, and yet if Roeder had called the police 10,000 times to report that unlawful killings of viable fetuses were taking place in that clinic, the police (who are charged with enforcing Kansas law) would more likely have sent officers to Roeder and arrested him for making false police reports or harrassment.
When those charged with enforcing the laws categorically refuse to enforce the laws, then can we condemn someone for taking the law into their own hands?
Roeder did not have the power to make an arrest of Tiller. He did not have the power to enter into the clinic and remove the sissors from Tiller's hands. He did something. He stopped the killing in Kansas.
Now Harley, was what Roeder did comparable to the "evil" that Tiller did? Is it possible that Roeder was acting "in defense of others" and that the "evil" that was visited upon Tiller was, in fact, Divine retribution?
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What I see is street justice within the culture of death. Within Roeder’s distorted world view, he could choose which life was more valuable, witness his being caught with bomb making material some years back. Within the government's and Tiller's world view, they could determine which lives were of more value. All of them; Roeder, the government and Tiller had a low view of the image of God in man and they reaped what they had sown. Fortunately the clash of world views was quarantined within a small area. But behind all of this is Haddon Robinson's “the hiss of the snake”.
Now the benefits may be that present murders were stopped and a possible future disaster averted, but I think those are tangential to Divine reciprocity.
Why would you say that?
During the Holocaust, the Nazis killed around 10 million Jews, gypsies, Poles, Slavs, Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups.
Since the start of the American Holocaust, over 50 million have been killed and over a third of them have been black. In his evilest fantasies Hitler never envisioned a day when those he deemed "subhuman" would actually bring their children to be killed.
Why would you say that the Nazi Holocaust was "blood crimes committed as satanic sacrifices by godless men" and not say the same about the American Holocaust?
As far as your statement that most Germans knew what was happening in the concentration camps and kept their mouths shut because they agreed with what was going on, this is both true AND false. Most Germans were very anti-Semitic and agreed with putting the Jews in CONCENTRATION camps; however, though massive deaths occurred at all of the camps, most concentration camps WERE NOT death camps they were forced labor camps
The Nazis only had six "death camps" (Auschwitz-Birkenau, Chelmno, Belzec, Majdanek, Sobibor and Treblinka) and these are where the huge majority of deaths took place. The interesting thing is that ALL of these camps were in Poland. The Nazis DID NOT want the German people to know what was going on and after the war it came out that very few Germans knew of the existence and purpose of the death camps.
Thanks. I have been watching Pastor Flurry at keyofdavid.com.
And of course, I have my Bible. Seems to be so many fake churches out there.
I “know abortion is murder” and I am willing to stand before Jesus and proclaim that fact.
If I am then condemed so be it.
In the Old Testiment those who caused a CHILD to die in it’s mother’s womb were stoned to death. Just as those today should be.
I judge with the same measure I will be judged by.
Tiller was no Christian, regardless of the church he was rightfully executed in, and he was not in a Christian church.
It doesn’t say “Thou shalt not commit kill”, but “Thou shalt not commit murder”. Murder is the killing of an innocent person.
Anyone should be able to tell who was guilty in this case. By no means was Tiller innocent.
NAZI Germany made it legal to murder Jews.
America has made it legal to murder the unborn.
If you read the posts on this and other threads who claim to be pro-life and against killing Tiller, but refuse to call the FETUS a child or baby they are not pro-life in any manner because they are unable to name the fetus what it really is, a baby, a child of God.
My family is Luthern and have a woman pastor. My sister was telling me about the fued between some of the church women and the pastor. Anyway to make a long story short, she rambled on and on about her church and finally I asked her just where God fit in at her church. She looked at me with a look of complete confusion like God? Who is he?
The comments were particularly offensive.
My response:
Quote
Murder is wrong, whether committed illegally by the man who killed Tiller or the 60,000 murdered in cold blood *by* Tiller.
Have I prayed for Tiller’s soul? Yes. But I also prayed for Saddam Hussein’s soul, Idi Amin’s soul, Joseph Mengele’s soul, and Timothy McVeigh’s soul. Why? Because I hope that everybody has a chance to repent and plead for God’s mercy before they die.
My only regret here is that our judicial system is such that the only way to prevent additional slaughter of human life by this butcher was through an immoral means.
Yes, a great good happened here: no more babies will be slaughtered at the hands of this butcher. However, it is always immoral to use immoral means to achieve a good goal. (i.e., I doubt many FReepers or any other pro-life “extremists” would have said, “I wish I would have done it myself.”
And, Altscribe, as far as your war...bring it on, baby...bring it on.
END QUOTE
So where do you draw the line? When does it become murder?
Here's the part of predestination you may be overlooking.
It is possible Roeder was meting out God's justice.
But if that is true, most likely (although all things are possible with God) Roeder, having taken another man's life, will not be rewarded by God for his efforts, but will be punished for breaking God's law.
This is not contradictory. God may well have used Roeder to accomplish something, but in that act Roeder has forsaken his own soul. Moses never reached the Promised Land because he challenged God. Paul was not considered a child of God until he stopped bringing about death.
Harley is right. For Roeder to have done this surely God removed His hand from him and said, "Go do what you naturally desire." And that desire may well condemn him. All according to the will and purpose of God.
From this we should pray God never removes His hand from us. And by His word, we have a reasonable certainty He won't.
!
Ping, just because.
You are probably right.
I believe that God's greatest desire is for ALL of us to repent and be with Him and that included Tiller.
Was it God's Will for Tiller to stop murdering children? Certainly, but I do not think it was His Will for Roeder to kill him. But we cannot say for certain.
It was certainly God's Will for Paul to stop killing Christians and Paul repented the moment God gave him the chance. We do not know if Tiller was ever convicted of his own sin as Paul was, though logic dictates that he probably should have known. However, we also don't know how God would have punished Paul if he had continued with his persecution.
Or the boyfriend / husband / mother / father / school counselor or nurse / supervisor at work / etc., who pressured her into it.
Or, for that matter, the SC Justices who made that evil decision to override the will of the people
Or the Congressweenies or Executive Branch bureaucrats who make laws to make it easier for her to do so
Or the leading members of pressure groups who lobby the Congressweenies and Executive Branch bureaucrats
Or the überrich benefactors for abortion advocates
Or the 50.5% of people who claim to be pro-life but don't ever take any action to show their outrage at the millions of lives slaughtered since 1973.
Yup, you're right in as much as there are plenty of hands that can be covered with those gallons of blood that have been spilled.
Thank you ever so much wagglebee for this excellent and highly informative essay/post!
I may get flamed for saying so, but I cannot consider a woman a Pastor.
My ex-church went with a husband/wife team. No matter how hard I tried to "hear her" as Pastor, I could not. She actually came into my office, as a patient, and the "story" doesn't sit well with me.
I won't say what happened; however, it "sealed the deal" with what I have been thinking all along and I am truly grateful I am out of that church.
Magnificent post, P-Marlowe. Thank you oh so very, very much!
From your lips to God's ear, dear brother in Christ!
With the (ill-named) Justice Department now on the case, look for things to get very, very "polarized." My suspicion is AG Holder would like to "use" Roeder as a pretext to go after political dissent. You know, those nasty right-wing radical domestic terrorists that are standing in the way of King O's magical plans for the American future. How DARE they stand up for LIFE when the issue is already "settled law?"
If I were Holder, I'd be very careful how I tread. There could be unforeseen unintended consequences.
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