“I know of nothing material without a cause.”
Right, but imagining a non-material thing without a cause to solve the First Mover problem doesn’t remove the elephant in the room: in creates a far bigger one. That is, if we have to accept that SOMETHING had to have come into being without a cause, it’s easier for me to imagine that being a blob of very simple stuff (hydrogen) from which—over an exceedingly long period of time and through processes we now readily can explain—eventually became a universe with stars, planets and living things. In contrast imagining that Perfection Personified magically appeared out of nothing requires a far larger leap of faith IMHO.
If science had deduced that humans had been instantaneously created in the Big Bang, THAT would be far more compelling evidence of the hand of God than a simple blob of hydrogen. Humans are so complex it would seem hard to imagine how they could have emerged fully formed.
As for entropy, this has a good explanation of the “problem” entropy poses for a natural explanation of the universe: http://www.mbbc.us/creation/universeorigin.htm
The universe has a boundary. At this point we’re not entirely sure whether the universe is open (will expand forever) or closed (will eventually collapse back in on itself). But the point is that all the laws of thermodynamics apply to post-Big-Bang conditions. That is, the universe has been “winding down” ever since the Big Bang, but this does not mean such laws governed the space that existed before the Big Bang.
It’s just like Newton’s laws do quite nicely for slow-moving objects, but make prediction errors when applied to objects moving at a high rate of speed, at which point the effects of speed on time and mass have to be taken into account. No one argues that because the laws change under identifiable conditions, this is evidence of the hand of God.
I believe you are confused on the issue here. No one believes man was instantaneously created at the moment of the Big Bang
THAT would be far more compelling evidence of the hand of God than a simple blob of hydrogen.
Not really, the precisely balanced forces necessary for the creation of an atom of hydrogen also permits the creation of water as well as the creation of all the other elements on the periodic table and the materials created from their combination. Physicists have been able to show that was created the moment of the Big Bang.
That is, the universe has been “winding down” ever since the Big Bang, but this does not mean such laws governed the space that existed before the Big Bang.
What "space" existed before the Big Bang? According to the knowledge of man - our 'space' didn't exist until after that event. Physicists and mathematicians cannot develop equations to represent the moment of the Big Bag, let alone prior to it - to attempt to do so is clearly speculation and unsupportable by any of the sciences.
I find your reply interesting. Thanks for a good discussion. Clearly we disagree, but I’m OK with that.
some follow up comments...
“That is, if we have to accept that SOMETHING had to have come into being without a cause, it’s easier for me to imagine that being a blob of...”
That’s one point where we differ. Since God has no beginning, as matter does, I do not have to accept something coming into being without a cause. You do.
“In contrast imagining that Perfection Personified magically appeared out of nothing requires a far larger leap of faith IMHO.”
Again. God has no beginning, since he is not part of the created material universe. My view is that your view - something from nothing with no cause, requires faith and a leap of logic. We differ. :-)
“Humans are so complex it would seem hard to imagine how they could have emerged fully formed.”
Humans are so complex, it would seem hard to imagine any process would produce them other than an incredible creator.
Again, thanks. The good news is that we will know the correct view someday.
I wish you the best and again, I thank you for the rare cordial conversation between differing views - uncommon on FR these days.
Best,
ampu