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To: muawiyah

Thanks for reply.

However, I would greatly question your opening assertion regarding the Picts. In fact the evidence shows the Picts were there both in Argyll and the North of Scotland inc the Orkneys. And that neither the Vikings nor Dalriadic Celts from Ireland destroyed them completely, as popular myth might have it.

I would be interested to see what evidence you are quoting to support your assertion that they simply werent there.

The Dalriadic Scots did not completely displace or destroy the Picts, that is an exaggeration only in recent times being reevaluated.

As the great Scots historian Nigel Tranter pointed out years ago, seemingly singularly at the time, the evidence for numbers suggests that the Picts may have outnumbered them from 5 to 1 to 15 to 1. Certainly the Dalriadics were excellent military men, and inflicted heavy losses on the Picts in the many wars between the two groups, but the notion of a complete destruction of the Picts cannot anymore be held seriously.

What happened was that over time, the Picts and Dalriadic Celts intermarried, which we see most notably in the ascension and reign of Kenneth McAlpin in 843.

There is also incresing archeological evidence from both Western Scotland and NI that the huge influx of Scotti from NI to Argyllshire, the men and women who supposedly came in large numbers with King Fergus in the 500’s, simply didnt happen in anywhere near the numbers most of us were taught.

There was certainly an emigration by the Scotti, but the recent archeological evidence uncovered in Argyllshire seems to suggest that many of the ‘Scotti’ (ie the Irish) were in fact other Celtic tribes that were already living there, and had done for sometime. And that the influx was small.

As to no Picts in the North, the Historia Norvegiae itself states that the Vikings met the Picts in the Orkneys. And the Annals of Ulster also state that the Picts were there when Ulster raiders and warlords attacked the Islands in the 7th and 8th centuries. And there is no evidence that the Picts were missing from great tracks of the Highlands either.

With all due respect, there is no evidence for what you are asserting. If there is, I’d like to see it.

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/scotsirish.htm

http://www.gla.ac.uk/archaeology/aboutus/staff/drecampbell/


116 posted on 05/15/2009 9:46:58 AM PDT by the scotsman
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To: the scotsman
What I am referring to are the efforts to find Pict "DNA markers" in modern populations. Supposedly these efforts are turning up blanks.

It's not beyond belief that the Picts died out in the Plague of Justinian. Different groups have different degrees of natural resistance to that disease and others.

Cultural similarities don't count for much if you're not part of the genepool.

Regarding the Irish, that concept is one of culture and not genes, but there are undoubtedly "DNA markers" that can be used to differentiate the tribes. What happens in Scotland is that you have two major sources for cultural Irish. The first source are Irish warrior societies who invaded Alba at an early period. The second source are Scandinavian slaves seized earlier in Ireland. They were taken to Alba by the proto-Vikings.

You also have to deal with the issue of King Frosti ~ he was not a Viking. His daughter, Skjalf Frostaddotter was born about 0428 in Finland. The Vikings came along about 400 years later once they'd acquired the advanced design boathull developed by the Sa'ami and the Finns for use on the Arctic and in the rivers that drain into the Arctic.

A copy of the Orkneyinga Saga was preserved in Iceland which is why any of us know these things.

BTW, there's also a King Frosti from 60 BC ~ to wit: Frosti Karasson, the father of Jokull Frostasson, b. ca. 040 BC in Kvenland. Jokull has a Sa'ami, not an Indo-European forname. Hmmm.

If there were Picts in the Orkneys in 40 BC these are the guys who had them over for dinner!

117 posted on 05/15/2009 10:03:23 AM PDT by muawiyah
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