Posted on 04/16/2009 6:55:57 AM PDT by steve-b
Well... as a Christian I can counter with Matthew 22:11-14, wherein the fellow shows up to the feast without a wedding garment, and is thrown into the outer darkness.
The point is not simply the clothing, but rather, as with most of what Jesus taught, the attitude behind the clothing.
The face we present to the world often reflects how we view the world. Do we view it as adults, or do we view it as adolescents?
I certainly believe that Mr. Will goes to far in his ridiculous condemnation of denim. But I fully agree that America is woefully short of adults who think and act as such. As a culture, our clothing choices (among other things) reflect that lack.
How does a suit reflect adult choices?
The trend towards casual clothes reflects a realization that clothes do NOT make the man, or employee. I recently went to a funeral. I wore business casual. Some wore jeans - and they were the folks who had known the deceased for 20+ years. I doubt any disrespect was intended, or taken.
On an airplane, I dress for comfort. I may well be stuck between two fat people whose bellies overflow the arm rests...I don’t need a tie to make me even MORE uncomfortable.
Sounds like he should be more worried about the stick up his butt than the jeans covering someone else’s.
I’ve always liked jeans, they are durable, clean up easily, and you don’t have to worry about staining them like with real pants. They aren’t appropriate for church, fancy outings, at professional offices (most of the time), but they have their place.
And mixing in some screed about how young people are slackers who shouldn’t vote because we play video games past eighteen is just stupid.
What you're describing is a self-centered view of how you present yourself to the world. To perhaps go too far ... it's all about you.
I'm sure you're a fine fellow, but that's not adult behavior. Part of dressing well for an occasion is that you want to show that you take others seriously -- that you care enough about them to take your appearance seriously.
Again: it's not the clothes, it's the attitude behind your choice of clothes.
I agree. Now go to the next step: why aren't they appropriate for church, etc.? What does showing up in jeans imply?
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That's one of the reasons I wear denim or other cotton clothing when flying.
Um, because different occasions call for different garb. I wouldn’t wear a fancy dress to change the oil on my car, or scrub the toilets or clean up the yard. I think Mr Will is ignoring that there are a lot of places where his garb would be as inappropriate as jeans in church.
Jeans are one step up from the bare minimum modesty requires us to wear. Wearing jeans at church or similar shows that we don’t consider more than the bare minimum necessary. That does not mean that families in jeans at the mall are a sign of the apocalypse. If you dress up to go to the mall you have issues.
And what makes YOU think other people give a rat’s rear end about a suit? What makes you think other people respect a suit?
It is a cultural thing. In the Philippines, a fancy shirt is worn instead of a coat & tie. In the west, many folks assume someone wearing a suit and tie is divorced from the realities of life. A coat & tie doesn’t say, “I’m an adult.” In Arizona, it usually says, “I’m a dork” - or that I work a job dominated by easterners. Have you ever heard of a bolo tie?
http://www.sheplers.com/mens/bolo_ties/accessories/accessories/
Suits are for sheeple, or northeastern city folks. There is, after all, a lot of overlap between the two.
Which is merely your way of saying that you’ll dress how you like, and hang how other folks see you.
“Now go to the next step: why aren’t they appropriate for church, etc.? What does showing up in jeans imply?”
If you show up in a coat & tie at my church, folks will be nice to you - but you sure will feel a bit different:
http://www.vailvalleybaptistchurch.org/sermons.html
In some cultures, this would be disrespectful to God and others. In southern Arizona, it is not. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
“...hang how other folks see you.”
No, it is my way of pointing out that other folks in southern Arizona ‘see’ me the way I intend, not the way you insist on misinterpreting. In southern Arizona, YOU would be the one sending the wrong messages, and looking down on people who meant you neither harm nor disrespect.
You do not set the standards of dress. You are not the God of Clothes.
Again, I agree with you. Mr. Will is being silly, and I think he's let his own foppishness get the better of him.
But the question remains, why do different occasions call for different garb? We agree that they do, and I strongly suspect we agree on why they do.
My questions was really something of a rhetorical poke at some of the responses on this thread, showing an attitude that is just the flip-side of Mr. Will's position. Will says that clothes make all the difference; some here seem to say that clothes make no difference.
The truth is in the middle, of course -- and it has more to do with attitude than with the clothing itself. Dressing properly is a sign of good manners, for example; and it's a sign of respect. It shows you take others seriously enough to put some effort into your appearance.
Which is a good thing: I am an engineer, with all that implies as regards clothing and fashion sense. I am lucky enough to have a wife who can dress me properly, and a daughter who is fearless about telling me what looks good or bad.
Nevertheless, I realize something that you clearly do not: that the choice of clothes is not all about you. Different occasions require different degrees of dressing up.
You will note, by the way, that I never dictated a dress code for you -- you simply projected what you don't want to wear, onto what I said.
“Nevertheless, I realize something that you clearly do not: that the choice of clothes is not all about you. Different occasions require different degrees of dressing up.”
What you still do NOT understand is that different cultures define appropriate dressing differently.
You said I’m making it all about me. In reality, you (& Will) are making it all about you...if you believe jeans are inappropriate, then they are, regardless of what others believe. You take offense where none is offered.
Another incorrect assumption on your part.
You said I’m making it all about me. In reality, you (& Will) are making it all about you...if you believe jeans are inappropriate, then they are, regardless of what others believe. You take offense where none is offered.
Do you agree, then, that there is an observable tendency among a large segment of the population, to adopt slovenly dress in places and for occasions in which it is clearly not appropriate?
Or are you saying that there should be no dress codes, and no standards of proper dress?
I’m saying all cultures I’ve encountered have dress standards. The clothes you wear do send a message - that is why we wear them, in part. A respect for others, along with practicality, requires one to dress IAW the standards present.
Before I retired, if I had a meeting in Washington, DC, I took along my dress blues. If I had a meeting with LM in DFW, I wore a flight suit. When I married in the Philippines, I wore a barong. Here in Arizona, I wear jeans. For more formal occasions, a shirt with a collar. For very formal, business pants, good shirt and bolo tie.
(sigh)
Sarcasm, my friend.
Or was it?
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