Out of Thin Air (renewable energy)

American Thinker ^ | April 13, 2009 | David S. Van Dyke

[neverdem]

I am really astounded by the public's apparent ignorance about "wind energy".  We all experience sunshine and wind but few of us bother to examine the "quality" of that sunshine and wind.  Obviously wind turbines only spin and generate electricity when the wind is blowing.  Accordingly, solar panels only generate electricity when the sun is shining on them.  In order for these technologies to be economically viable you have to have a lot of wind and/or a lot of sunshine.

Wind energy works best in areas with a lot of sustained wind usually blowing from one prevailing direction.  Here in the mountains of New Mexico we certainly get wind, but it is seldom sustained wind of significant velocity and it often changes direction.  We're far better suited for solar power than wind turbines.  The truth is, there may be a number of areas around the country that experience frequent, sustained wind from one prevailing direction, but not all are suitable for large, unsightly wind turbines.

I lived in Amarillo, Texas for over 10 years.  I can't imagine anywhere better suited for large wind turbines than West Texas.  The wind is so predominately from the southwest that all the trees grow leaning to the northeast (after you live there a few years you don't even notice it).  The wind blows all the time.  I remember there being very few days without incessant wind.  Except for the majestic canyons (most of which are located on private land), the vast expanse of west Texas is unbelievably flat and is almost always windswept.  This is perfect terrain for the T. Boone Pickens plan for wind farms.  There is "high quality" wind there.  It's nearly constant and almost always from one general direction.  Further, a huge tower and wind turbine is not particularly aesthetically displeasing.  You're not blocking anyone's view of anything except more flat, featureless landscape. 

The problem is that these things cost something like a million dollars each and every spring they experience another weather anomaly in that region -- tornados.  Over the next few years I anticipate there being a number of million dollar losses of wind turbines due to weather.

I certainly would not want a huge wind turbine (many times the size of a pump jack) blocking my view of the Sandia and Jemez mountains.  Large wind farms are only effective in certain locations and if those locations happen to have nice scenery around them, you can expect tremendous resistance to them. 

The great promise of wind energy currently depends on huge government subsidy.  As soon as the subsidy dries up, these great twirling giants will suddenly look pretty stupid when they are no longer cost-effective to build and maintain.

Further, once these wind farms clutter up a skyline, more and more people will lose interest.  Solar power is even more inefficient except in a very few locations.  Even in the best locations solar arrays require a lot of real estate and unless built on top of an existing structure, they destroy or certainly change the ecosystem beneath them.

Wind energy is limited to rather specific geographic locations and certain prevailing weather patterns.  Right now it is utterly dependent upon government subsidy for viability. There is a wealth of information available online to show where solar and wind are potentially viable options and where they are most likely not good options.  Most of the land mass of the United States is, for any one of a number of reasons, not well suited for these technologies on a large scale.

Wind energy is limited to rather specific geographic locations and certain prevailing weather patterns.  Right now it is utterly dependent upon government subsidy for rconomic viability. Only a fool would believe that government subsidy will create thousands of sustainable long-term jobs and significantly supplement our future energy needs out of thin air.

[Vaduz]

What permits were required?

[Wonder Warthog]

"I really want to like photovoltaic panels, but when you run the numbers, they are just not practical, even when the govt picks up 80% of the cost in some states."

When was the last time you "ran the numbers"?? Nanosolar panels < $1/watt.

[The Great RJ]

Wind generators not only do not generate electricity when there is no wind, they are also shut down when there is too much wind. Those monster turbine blades will self destruct in high winds so they only operate in a narrow range of wind speeds. This means that windmills cannot be used for reliably generating a large part of electric needs because there may not enough or too much wind blowing when there is a demand for power or ideal wind conditions when there is little demand. On February 28, 2008 Texas experienced a power crisis when nearly all of their wind generators were stopped due to a large weather front. Imagine the consequences if wind generators were to be the source of 20% of our electric generating capacity.

[Kirkwood]

I ran the numbers just last week based on annual KwH usage, average number of sunny days, and available space to mount panels, along with installation costs in my community and cost of materials currently considered to be the most efficient. Assuming perfect conditions and completely covering every square foot of roof space with panels which are in the $4.00/watt range which are the type recommended for my house, and 50% rebates for my state, it still would cost $15,000 out of pocket for a system. If I can eliminate my current electric cost and even make a $25/month profit by selling electric back to the grid, it would take 50 years to recoup my $15,000 cost (not including the cost of replacing components over that 50 year period). Also, the numbers don’t include the fact that 90% of my current electric cost comes from night use when the solar panels have no offset effect. I’ll probably only live another 15 years, so it just isn’t worth it. If I were in my 20s, I think it would make sense for this house. By the way, nanosolar panels are virtually impossible to find unless you want to wait a couple of years. Their estimated length of service is also unknown.

[Wonder Warthog]

Now, run the numbers through again with $1/watt and what is the result?

"By the way, nanosolar panels are virtually impossible to find unless you want to wait a couple of years.

Which is good, because that means that their product is selling well, and they'll be around a while.

"Their estimated length of service is also unknown."

Uh, they offer a 25 year warranty. How much more do you want??

At < $15000 installed cost, and grid independence essentially forever, it absolutely makes sense to build these into NEW homes, especially across the "Sun Belt".

[Balding_Eagle]

He deserves to get something back from the taxing scoundrels.

That he does. Are the scoundrels going to send him any?

[Harold Shea]

That`s the way we used to raise those big fly-swatter
antennas in VN.

Beautiful scenery ya`ll have there,and a pretty steady
wind I imagine to keep it spinning.

[El Gato]

You're not blocking anyone's view of anything except more flat, featureless landscape.

Heh! Some of us *like* flat featureless landscape. (It's not really featureless anyway. It's just flat.

Waves of grain, or grass come to mind, as only one of many features.

BUT...

I was driving in north central Kansas (I think, might have been south central Nebraska, just last Friday. I drive the route once or twice a year. (It leads directly to my mother-in-law's house..:).. in fact that's who was in the car with me. ) We came across one ridge, not out on the flat at all, with at least a dozen wind turbines on one side and at least a couple of dozen, maybe even three dozen on the other side, of the highway. All right on the ridge line.

They were all feathered. Too much wind is also NOT GOOD, and Thursday there had been too much wind.

But, smarter folks than I have shown by some fairly simple calculations, there is not enough wind in the country to make much of dent in the demands for energy.

Fossil fuels can do that, but so can nuclear, with a lot less "bothersome" side effects. So, what has the Messiah done? Canceled the project to ameliorate the one bothersome side effect of nuclear energy. (Yucca Mountain storage site). I think Obama is Crazy Eddie.

[Old Professer]

Where can I get one?

[El Gato]

Each and every watt generated by a wind turbine or a solar array must be backed-up by a watt of coal- or natural gas- or nuclear-generated power.

Well not exactly. For one thing, since the wind energy generators are distributed rather than at a single location, it's unlikely that all will be down at the same time. (Not true for solar of course, since it's dark over very large regions at the same time.) Secondly there is storage.

You generate more than you need when the wind blows or the sun shines. You use the surplus to pump water uphill into a reservoir. Then when you need it, you let the water run down through the water turbines (which may be the same machines as the pumps, just running in the "other direction").

Pumped storage is in use today, although it's generally used to make use of nuclear or other "base load" capacity during times of lower consumption, such as at night. A nuclear plant, and to a lessor extent large fossil fueled plants, don't "like" to have their output changed frequently. They like to run at a steady output, preferably something close to maximum.

[Red Boots]

I would never recoup the money I put into the system, although someone in their 20s might be able to.

I have considered this point, but I think given normal equipment maintenance, and the fact that most heating technology doesn't last for 30+ years without needing a total retrofit, there is no way to recoup costs, no matter what one's age might be.

By the time the payback period is over, the equipment will likely be obsolete, and totally nonfunctional.

Generally mechanical equipment is considered functional for 10 years, but somehow alternative equipment gets to be considered for 30 + ?

The technology doesn't warrant it, and I think it's only done because it skews already questionable numbers.

Just my 2 cents.

[razorback-bert]

The wind is so predominately from the southwest that all the trees grow leaning to the northeast

If I were home, I post some pictures of this.

[Terabitten]

Secondly there is storage.

I'm surprised that all these smart folks in wind power haven't figured out how to use them to charge batteries or capacitors of some kind to even out power supply. It seems kind of obvious.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Where can I get one?"

Right now, you can't. The plant dedicated to producing cells for home installation isn't due to start up until (as I recall) next year. The current production is optimized for "utility-sized" cells and panels, and production for that plant is "sold out" for (again as I recall--just too lazy busy to go to the Nanosolar website and check) the next three years.

[cabojoe]

I know he had to submit a plot plan, all the drawings for the foundation and tower and get them approved (which took months of run around),sound permit. Electrical gets inspected. I’m sure there’s more. He would say it was tougher to do all the paperwork and running around to city offices than the actual construction was.

[cabojoe]

He’ll file the paperwork after the power company inspects it today and we’ll find out. He should get around $4500, which is the cost of the turbine itself.

[Clock King]

I am really astounded by the public's apparent ignorance about "wind energy".

I'm not. From Kindergarten on, most kids hate math and science. You can dress it up, hip it up, or sex it up, and they won't learn or retain it. So it's no surprise that people promising "magic" to them get all the accolades and press. Most people are completely clueless as to how the world works.

[El Gato]

I'm surprised that all these smart folks in wind power haven't figured out how to use them to charge batteries or capacitors of some kind to even out power supply. It seems kind of obvious.

They have. My wife's grandfather had a wind turbine, with storage batteries, back before the farm got connected to the electrical grid. His farm was the first in the county to get connected too. Grandpa was very forward looking, as would be expected considering he got his bachelors degree in about 1919, pretty unusual for a farmer in those days. He also served on the board of the local REA from those days until the 1970s.

He swung a mean sledge too, as the "township blacksmith". If you had a broken part, and the dealer was back ordered on them, you went to "walt".

Plus, if you got married in that part of the county, it wasn't official unless Grandma N made your wedding cake. She made ours, actually both of them, and transported them 120 miles. :)