FReeper Book Club: Atlas Shrugged, The Man Who Belonged on Earth

A Publius Essay | 28 March 2009 | Publius

[ml/nj]

I’m posting Alexis de Tocqueville’s work today on another thread.

I haven't seen your thread, but I hope it is obvious that the America de Tocqueville described was gone with the wind.

ML/NJ

[Loud Mime]

Here it is:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2216858/posts

[ml/nj]

Our education system is headed down this road. Secondary schools are there, but colleges will have to succomb soon (if they haven't already) because of the dumbed-down students they are handed. The liberal arts majors might be more dumbed down now than in the past and I know technical majors now require more liberal arts electives than they did when got an engineering degree

My experience is that you are wrong. I went to an engineering school (RPI) back in the 60s because I had no patience for anything that couldn't be expressed in a formula like F=Ma. Now I'm different and I think that taking a year of Atomic and Nuclear Physics was probably the most useless thing I ever did. I go back to the schools my kids attended and participate in "liberal arts" classes. To be sure I rarely, if ever, take a class in something that includes the word studies in its course title; and my kids did go to prestigious schools. My experience has been that the kids in those classes I've participated in are extremely bright, articulate, thoughtful. What other adjectives should I use. It is a dangerous myth that these kids are all mind numbed robots. That may be the way it is these days at CCNY, but it isn't that way at the schools the kids in the top ten of their HS graduating classes attend if they attended any sort of competitive HS.

ML/NJ

[whodathunkit]

No I'm not. I paid the protection money and moved out of town feeling like a sell out to my principles.

I very respectfully disagree with your self assessment.

I would like to point out a few relevant facts that I based my opinion on but there are rules about spoilers on this thread and I don't wish to be in violation.

To stay and fight would have taken your time and money, both being absorbed by the very beast that you wished to defeat. You would have lost even if you had legally prevailed.

[mick]

Of course, that's the question isn't it. I had the wherewithal to escape. Plenty of good people without a means to get out are now paying the city. Are they less moral than someone who paid his way out? I don't think so.

I wanted to fight. I called my lawyer and asked him if they could link a business license renewal to this new law. And he said probably not. But they did. And fighting them would cost way more than the cost of painting the building. And the big companies, L3 and Campbell Soup could afford fences around their property and would not help. And they also had been contributors to the "community groups" petitioning for a cleanup.

And as my lawyer said, I was a suburban living, exploiter of the community refusing to paint my building....ha, I would be burned out probably.

So it was better to cut and run and leave the rest of my buddies to fend for themselves. This is prison camp morality I'm afraid...but it is reality in America today. Ugly.....but Ayn Rand captures it perfectly in the story of the Twentieth Century Motor Company.

[mick]

Probably. See post 45.

[CottonBall]

If you’re only talking about the top 1% of each high school, then you are excluding 99% of the student body. You can concentrate only on the ‘elite’, just as this administration does, but you do a disservice to the real working people that make this country run.

And you are ignoring the stats that show that a BA in almost anything is worth just the paper it is printed on. A technical degree, however, is in demand and pay for those majors far exceeds the easier degrees. (joboutlook.com is one such site)

You can just look at yourself and how it didn’t work out for you. And you can look at a handful of other people. But making a generalization out of a low sampling pool isn’t accurate. And you are pretty biased.

[CottonBall]

We began heading down this road in the Seventies, and even then, college students at many schools had to take a course called "freshman bonehead English" to be ready for first year studies. That trend has only expanded over the past 35 years.

That's the timeframe I've heard also - very coincidental that it's when the NEA started its stranglehold on schools....

In some areas, close to 50% of college freshmen have to take remedial math and english. Why they are even going to school is beyond me (other than that it is paid for with taxpayer money).

[CottonBall]

Now I'm different and I think that taking a year of Atomic and Nuclear Physics was probably the most useless thing I ever did.

Now I see the difference - sorry, I didn't catch this part and thought you mad a degree in physics. Majoring in it might have netted you quite a different story. I took 1 year of Russian and can't say that it benefitted me either. Most courses that didn't directly integrate into my major didn't likely benefit me, other than acquiring more general knowledge.

[CottonBall]

typo - ‘mad’ should’ve been ‘had’. My degree is obviously not in writing - or proofreading.

Anyway, I think the technical side of the majors would be dumbed down last because those are the least subjective.

[ml/nj]

At my kids' HS, the top ten was five percent of the class. The notion that everyone should get a college education is probably part of the problem. As I said, I've been in dozens of classes with kids at a couple of the most desirable (USNR type anyway) colleges and the kids a these colleges (not my kids) are no dummies.

ML/NJ

[Publius]

That's the timeframe I've heard also - very coincidental that it's when the NEA started its stranglehold on schools...

Oh, it's not a coincidence. It was planned a long time ago. Soon there will be a book issued by an important national foundation titled Why Do You Think You Think? with one message for Americans: "Obey!"

[tstarr]

Agreed. We were watching the Tim Geithner hearings this week a bit, since you can’t seem to avoid either him or Obama if you have the TV on. Wesley Mouch came to mind.

It was astounding. He talked about having the right to go in and take over private companies if he felt they posed risk to the banking system. When confronted on the radicality of that plan, he seemed dumbfounded and said that it wasn’t radical at all. He thought it was perfectly normal for a non-elected, appointed Sec. Treasury to sweep in and take over any private company as long as he along wanted to. WOW!!

Then Congressman Bachman asked him to point to the Constitution and show her where in that document it indicated that he had the right to do anything in that regard (may have been a different, but related issue) and he just gave that deer-in-the-headlights look. ( U.S. Constitution? Why would that matter?)

But, I believe they are overreaching and a very large backlash is a comin’

[tstarr]

Bill, the Carbon Credits fiasco is the single most asinine thing I believe I’ve ever seen in politics. And that’s a VERY high bar. People make, and will continue to make huge sums of money on this. It simply amazes me that people are actually able to talk about this with a straight face. And the people listening to them sit there with serious looks on their face, and nod in approval. I’d like to say it’s unbelievable, but I can’t.

So when we find that we are in a period of global cooling, which we appear to be entering, do we sell carbon debits?

[MtnClimber]

Earth Hour was not predicted in AS. What are Freeper AS book club readers planning for Earth Hour? I plan to turn on all lights including outside flood lights. It will drive some of my liberal neighbors crazy. Maybe they will report me to the Obama Youth.

[tstarr]

I feel that, actually, the technical majors have been dumbed down for some time as well. I know I’m going to come off as an old fogie, but I got a degree in Math in 1974, went to grad school, then got a job as a computer programmer. Back then, most of the programmers were math/physics/engineering majors who had learned and/or developed their logical thought processes in their majors, then went on to learn a language in which to implement them.

When I was hiring programmers a few years ago, I was hard pressed to find anyone who knew more than the computer language itself. There was a depth of education that is lacking now, IMHO.

[MrsPatriot]

“What are Freeper AS book club readers planning for Earth Hour?”

I am turning on every light, radio, tv and other electrical appliance in the house, along with the Christmas lights . . . and I'm going to leave them all on until about 11:00PM.

[CottonBall]

The notion that everyone should get a college education is probably part of the problem.

I'm with you on that. Our local high school operates on the attitude that they'll prepare everyone for college. Yet, it has one of the highest drop out rates in the state (which is a low performing state)! Obviously, they are attempting something most of the student cannot do (or don't want to) - and they quit instead.

As I said, I've been in dozens of classes with kids at a couple of the most desirable (USNR type anyway) colleges and the kids a these colleges (not my kids) are no dummies.

I didn't mean to imply that the students are dumb. It's the curriculum plus how the teachers interpret it. I think kids today are just as capable as those of yesteryear - even more capable because of the techology they've been involved with since a young age, actually. But most schools expect little, making the kids lack motivation to go beyond those expectations. Not all, of course, but more and more every year ;(

[CottonBall]

I feel that, actually, the technical majors have been dumbed down for some time as well. I know I’m going to come off as an old fogie, but I got a degree in Math in 1974, went to grad school, then got a job as a computer programmer. Back then, most of the programmers were math/physics/engineering majors who had learned and/or developed their logical thought processes in their majors, then went on to learn a language in which to implement them.

You make perfect sense (nothing old fogie-ish!). You have to know what you are programming and what is needed before even implementing the coding part of the project.

When I was hiring programmers a few years ago, I was hard pressed to find anyone who knew more than the computer language itself. There was a depth of education that is lacking now, IMHO.

That explains why the naval base I worked on as a civilian overwhelmingly hired engineers for its avionics programming. I've heard a supervisor or two say it was easier to hire someone who knew the mechanics and teach them to program than to hire someone who can program and teach them the engineering. Of course, these days most engineers will graduate already knowing several programming languages. I graduated in '83 and we were doing some fortran programming in my senior classes (my freshman year was spent using punch cards on an IBM mainframe! Thing advanced pretty quickly in those 4 years). Anyway, I think I worked with one computer programmer in my 16 years there and probably hundreds of engineers and tens of mathematicians and physicists. One philosophy major turned programmer - interesting fella! He was the token liberal and we put him on the left side of the trailer....

[MtnClimber]

My company has resorted to hiring computer security (Information Assurance) engineers who have history and psychology degrees. Ever try to get something done while working with totally incapable people?