Posted on 02/08/2009 12:26:55 PM PST by Ravnagora
None of what you said is incorrect, nor is anything I said incorrect. They complement each other.
At that point in time in Serbia proper, the Germans were still banking on Nedic's forces as well as Pecanac's Chetniks. This all changed in the second half of 1943 in Serbia proper.
As for Mihailovic's Chetniks outside of Serbia proper in 1942, those in the Italian occupation zone (Dalmatia, Lika, Montenegro, Western Bosnia, Hercegovina) were already in full collaboration with the Italians and many had been legalized by them as MVAC units (anti-communist auxillaries) and were being supplied and sheltered by them and engaged in actions alongside the Axis.
Eastern Bosnia was in the German occupation zone and Draza's man there, Major Dangic, had already concluded a deal with the Germans in December 1941 to receive supplies and to fight the Partisans together with the Germans in what became known as the "Dangic Affair".
The Chetniks under Mihailovic's direct control i.e. those in Serbia proper, didn't collaborate until much later. Those Chetniks outside of Serbia proper but under Mihailovic's nominal control were a completely different story.
A lot of confusion about this stems from this fact.
Jatras’ words aren’t relevant to the discussion at hand.
If you are going to talk about me, talk TO me, Dio. It's sneaky and rude to do otherwise.
I don't get into WWII battle by battle, because memorizing who was on what ridge on what date fighting who, just isn't my forte. I have read enough about it to form an opinion, but it isn't my country -- the US is-- and if I haven't memorized the American Civil War, battle by battle, why would I memorize WWII Yugoslavia's civil war, battle by battle?
No one here even brought up WWII Yugoslavia with reference to today's Croatia, except the Dragic letter to the editor. Until you made a big deal out of calling that guy an idiot, WWII Croatia was never an issue.
But this: "beware of Serbian propagandists and their claims"Always, always take Serbian claims with a two handfuls of salt.
That's just plain rude and disrespectful. I may think that at times you delude yourself, but I have never called you or all Croats "liars". It's not the 1990's anymore, Dio. Americans are not so gullible today to just soak up innuendo and propaganda like sponges.
bttt
One of the signficant reasons is that Kurt Waldheim, then a young officer, participated in the Kozara operation, which would remain part of his "hidden Nazi past". 30 years later he would serve as Secretary General of the United Nations for two terms, from 1972 to 1982.
Former United Nations Secretary General Kurt Waldheim, center, at a meeting on May 22, 1943, in Podgorica, Yugoslavia. Photo by AP/World Jewish Congress
Yes, everybody else is incorrect except you. I find that, incorrect.
Again, you’re misrepresenting my position. Most of my sources come directly from the Chetniks in emigration post-WW2. Were they liars?
That's precisely the point. Ravnagora for some reason decided to post a letter that once again brought up WW2.
Americans are not so gullible today to just soak up innuendo and propaganda like sponges.
Which is why they shouldn't lap up Serbian propaganda about WW2, I agree.
Really?
Is it "Serbian propaganda" that Mihailovic had a German price on his head, when Poglavnik Ante Pavelic (Croatian Fuhrer) didn't because he was a close ally of Germany?
Is it "Serbian propaganda" that Harry Truman awarded Mihailovic the Legion of Merit, George W. Bush had it delivered and that the only American Legion post in the US named after a foreigner is named after Draza Mihailovic?
Is it "Serbian propaganda" that Croatians are still selling crap like this on the internet, glorifying Ante Pavelic who supported Hitler?
Is it "Serbian propaganda" that 500 American Flyers, rescued by Mihailovic, spent their lives trying to honor him but were continually shut out by the US State Department?
Your idea of "Serbian Propaganda" are actually stone-cold FACTS! Acquaint yourself with them, Dio, if you can quit spewing Croat propaganda long enough!
Serbian propaganda is that Mihailovic was an anti-Axis fighter throughout the war when in fact the Chetniks collaborated in varying degrees.
Serbian propaganda is that the Serbs were anti-Axis and that Croatians were pro-Axis when the fact is that both sides had collaborators and both sides had those that opposed the Nazis.
Serbian propaganda is that 700,000 Serbs were killed by the Ustashi when the fact is that only 530,000 Serbs were killed throughout the whole of Yugoslavia during that war from fighting in all conflicts.
etc. etc. etc.
Would you like me to post Serbian Nazi gear being sold in Belgrade today?
“Diocletian” U-keep on trying...
Of the two dozen ethnic groups in Yugoslavia all had some collaborators with the Germans, except the Turks, but in contrast to the massive Croatian alliance with the Germans people like Jevdjevic were bit players. Croatian forces were no minor collaborators. The whole of “Independent Croatia” was a committed Nazi ally. Only Croats, Muslims and Albanians raised whole divisions for the 3rd Reich and fought in German ranks, as did French fascists, Belgian, Dutch, Danish and Norwegian units. Ljotic is no hero to the mass of Serbs; his motivation in any case was not to build a Third Reich but to prevent Germany’s decimation of the Serbs. Nedic is as disgraced in Serbian eyes as Petain in France. Neither Petain nor Nedic were Nazis. Pecanac is reviled by Serb Partizani. Djujic’s goal was not to join the Axis powers, but to prevent extermination – by Nazi Croatia – of the Serbs of Krajina, a territory which was never ethnically Croatian but subordinated to Croatian administration by the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, to placate the Croats and forestall German domination. Before his alliance with Hitler Mussolini had supplied weapons to Austrian nationalists to prevent German annexation of Austria. Italy wanted civil war in Yugoslavia to further Italy’s goal of retaining Dalmatia and Istria. Italian generals supplied weapons to the Krajina Chetniks, who were not under Mihailovic’s command. He was in far-off Serbia, not Bosnia or “Croatia”. It is a geographic pipe dream to imagine Mihailovic marching his Chetniks from Serbia to Slovenia. Germans quit naming their babies Adolf after WW II. Croat babies today are baptized with the name of their Nazi Fuehrer (Poglavnik) Ante Pavelic. Serb halls in America have no paintings of any of the collaborators, while Croatian Cultural Centers are plastered with images of
WW II Nazi Croats. Mini-Hitler Pavelic is enshrined in the CRO pantheon.
Remember the WANTED posters? The Germans in occupied Serbia offered the same big rewards for the capture of Mihailovic as for Tito — “Captured Dead or Alive”. Now, when is Croatia going to sign a peace treaty with the USA? U declared war aginst America in 1941. U lost, but now U are back.
You are attempting to equivocate the level of German collaboration when, in fact, the two sides were not "equal" then -- nor is it equal today! A couple of "hairs" on a fabric shirt is not "a hair shirt"!
You might find a handful of lunatic fringe in Belgrade sporting that Nazi stuff, just like you would see Nazi gear on a few here in the US. But the Pavelic tee-shirt I displayed isn't being sold in "downtown Zagreb" -- it is being sold here in the US. They also used to sell that crap on eBay until they got thrown off. I doubt that this Cafe Press retailer even knows that they are selling pro-Nazi memorabilia!
Serbian propaganda is that 700,000 Serbs were killed by the Ustashi when the fact is that only 530,000 Serbs were killed throughout the whole of Yugoslavia during that war from fighting in all conflicts.
The precise number killed are a difficult thing, because Croats weren't "Germans" in a sense of meticulously recording every murder with date, time & place. The Ustase also destroyed many of their records before they abandoned Jasenovac. So reconstruction of numbers dead have been taken from a variety of sources, including the Germans who were there and in a position to know.
That they deliberately destroyed records of their nefarious acts, should not be used to benefit them today to "set their own number" of those they murdered!
Actually it isn't since we have the numbers of Zerjavic, Kocovic, and the suppressed numbers from the Yugoslav gov't study (they chose to publish the inflated numbers for various political and financial reasons even after Djilas blew the whistle).
You are attempting to equivocate the level of German collaboration when, in fact, the two sides were not "equal" then -- nor is it equal today!
Are you implying that collaboration with Nazi Germany is going on even today? Wow.
Bokababe: how do you square the fact that Momcilo Djujic, head Chetnik of the Serbs in Dalmatia and Lika during WW2 (who then lived in exile in the USA) and part of the Ravna Gora Movement under Draza was a follower of Dimtrije Ljotic and Zbor?
Jevdjevic was far from a "bit player".
Dobrosav Jevdjevic, a former member of the Skupstina, was made the official liason with the Italian forces by Draza in the Italian-occupied sector and therefore was the political head of all Chetnik units in the Italian zone alongside Ilija Trifunovic-Bircanin (who died during the war). Jevdjevic (who later fled to the USA after the war) was protected by the Italians from the Ustashi and was the main point man in regards to the legalization of the Chetniks as Italian MVAC units. Jevdjevic was next to Draza Mihailovic the most important Chetnik figure on the ground during WW2.
Ljotic is no hero to the mass of Serbs; his motivation in any case was not to build a Third Reich but to prevent Germany’s decimation of the Serbs. Nedic is as disgraced in Serbian eyes as Petain in France. Neither Petain nor Nedic were Nazis.
The point is that all these men collaborated from the get go after the capitulation, putting paid to the notion that Serbs were all anti-fascists.
Ljotic in particular is an interesting case because he kept ties to the Ravna Gora Movement and some of the leaders of that movement such as Djujic were his followers. In the dying days of the war, Ljotic and Mihailovic agreed to form a combined force that would approach Pavelic to create a "pan anti-communist front" against Tito since all three thought that the West would never allow Tito to gain power since he was a Commmunist.
Pecanac is reviled by Serb Partizani.
Kosta Pecanac was the head Chetnik during the interwar period and began collaboration from day one after the capitulation in 1941.
Djujic’s goal was not to join the Axis powers, but to prevent extermination – by Nazi Croatia – of the Serbs of Krajina, a territory which was never ethnically Croatian but subordinated to Croatian administration by the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, to placate the Croats and forestall German domination.
LOL. Djujic never once fought the Axis and began collaboration from day one. He was an out and out collaborator. His units were made into Italian MVAC units. As for "extermination", that's funny since the Ustashi weren't allowed in those areas under Italian rule and the Chetniks instead were allowed to rule.
Plus, much of what you call "Krajina" was annexed by the Italians: places like Obrovac, Benkovac, Kistanje, etc. meaning that they were under Italian and not Croatian rule. Djujic was the most prominent outright collaborator of the Axis during WW2 which is why he had to be evacuated by the Nazis after the Partizans took Knin in 1944.
Italian generals supplied weapons to the Krajina Chetniks, who were not under Mihailovic’s command. He was in far-off Serbia, not Bosnia or “Croatia”.
They were under his nominal command as part of the JVuO. A lot of confusion stems from this fact. Serb propagandists want their cake and to eat it too when it comes to this issue. Jevdjevic and Trifunovic-Bircanin were the bridge between Draza and Djujic.
Croat babies today are baptized with the name of their Nazi Fuehrer (Poglavnik) Ante Pavelic.
Utter horseshit! Ante has long been one of the three most popular names in Croatia because St. Anthony of Padua (Sv. Ante Padovanski) is the patron saint of southern Croatians.
What an absolutely disgraceful smear from you.
Serb halls in America have no paintings of any of the collaborators, while Croatian Cultural Centers are plastered with images of WW II Nazi Croats.
Of course they do: Mihailovic, Djujic, Djurisic, etc.
Remember the WANTED posters? The Germans in occupied Serbia offered the same big rewards for the capture of Mihailovic as for Tito — “Captured Dead or Alive”.
And that ended when Draza began his overt collaboration later in the war.
Now, when is Croatia going to sign a peace treaty with the USA? U declared war aginst America in 1941. U lost, but now U are back.
The Republic of Croatia is the legal successor of the Socialist Republic of Croatia founded by ZAVNOH (WW2 Croatian Partisans) and not NDH.
Yeah, nice move there -- it avoided Croatia having to pay WWII reparations to those they murdered, even if it meant calling communists their "daddy"!
Here's the WWII poster issued by Germany with a price on Mihailovic's head!
You have zero understanding of international law.
"You have zero understanding of international law."
And yet here is Slovenia saying precisely the same thing in a Croat news story! Wow!
Croatia has taken a clear stand on the matter. This is confirmed by its most important document, the Constitution, which states that the foundations of the Republic of Croatia sovereignty in the time of World War II were established on the decisions of the Anti-Fascist Council of People's Liberation of Croatia (ZAVNOH 1943) and then in the Constitution of the People`s Republic of Croatia (1947) etc.
"In its records from a recent sitting, the committee for European and international issues of the Slovene National Council proposed MPs to “consider relations with Croatia in the light of its alleged NDH heritage”.
The records state that the NDH is still in a way present on the Croatian political scene and that today`s Croatia has not “paid full war compensation or apologised to affected peoples and countries”.
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