Posted on 12/19/2008 3:08:08 PM PST by marktwain
Did these cops have any ammo? There was one report that they didn't shoot in over 10 years because they have no range to practice and a shortage of ammo.
Nobody is going to flame you(well, maybe someone)but we are not talking about the regular criminal here, we are talking about a murderous terrorist situation similar to what happened in India. Even so, your advice is good if we are talking about someone we see holding up a store or similar situation but if you are faced with a mall shooting from the run of the mill terrorist and someone is pumping rounds into the populace, I feel you have a duty to shoot back, not to save your own a**.
In a situation like India merely fighting back, even if you don't hit anyone, is going to disrupt their plans and cause them to seek cover if nothing else. If you are vastly outnumbered, then retreating probably is a good idea, after laying down a suppressing fire and making them duck.
As I said, in regular criminal confrontations your advice is good and what most CCW instructors advocate a law abiding person do, but when faced with terrorists we all better be prepared to fight back, as for compunctions about killing some murderous scumbag intent on killing as many people as possible, I don't think we need to waste time on feeling sorry for them.
What if the weakest member of the opposition is stronger than you? We all get old and frail if we live long enough. ;0(
Thanks for the reminder to get some more range time in this holiday season.
As a civilian suppression fire = prison time.
Now, if the FedGov will expand Executive Order 13223 to include “all retired members of the Regular Armed Forces” for detached security duty at their home of record, further, the Order provides for full indemnification of any activities associated with said security duty....
(kind of like in the book Alas Babylon) then I would consider “even if you don't hit anyone, is going to disrupt their plans and cause them to seek cover if nothing else”
My Daddy did teach me not to take a pistol to a machine gun fight....
Look, you do have a point - this works in Israel because of the situation - I submit to you it will take that level of routine violence here before we see the kind of ex-IMF freeplay seen there.
May the good Lord protect us.
Thanks, if I get down that way, I’ll make sure we have lunch.
“Preparing for Mumbai - In America”
We’ve got worse than that.
Mexico’s bloody drug war - The drug violence in Mexico rivals death tolls in Iraq.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2148589/posts
[snip]On Nov. 3, the day before Americans elected Barack Obama president, drug cartel henchmen murdered 58 people in Mexico......By comparison, on average 26 people — Americans and Iraqis combined — died daily in Iraq in 2008. Mexico’s casualty list on Nov. 3 included a man beheaded in Ciudad Juarez whose bloody corpse was suspended along an overpass for hours. No one had the courage to remove the body until dark. The death toll from terrorist attacks in Mumbai two weeks ago approaches the average weekly body count in Mexico’s war. ..... in Juarez, which is just across the Rio Grande...
THE WAR NEXT DOOR
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2151549/posts
>if you are faced with a mall shooting from the run of the mill terrorist and someone is pumping rounds into the populace,<
>> I feel you have a duty to shoot back, not to save your own a**.<<
“someone is pumping rounds into the populace”, this describes the daily gang shootings to a perfect T. They aren’t interested if small children or old ladies are in the background, shoot ‘em all and earn my rights in the gang is the objective.
ASOC is saying that when you see, “someone is pumping rounds into the populace, make damn sure you know that is is not just a gang fight and is an actual terrorist attack.
In one of them you would be shooting American citizens who have some rights, the gang members, and in the other you would be shooting international citizens who have more rights than you can imagine!. Those rights start with the international media who is going to smear you with every type of filth known to science and then lie about your background, your intentions and your innocence.
If you believe that you are going to walk away unscathed REMEMBER the Marines at Haditha and what happened to them. They had every newspaper in the world on their backs, foreign and American legislators too.
Think before you act. Don’t react to an unknown.
I feel you have a duty to shoot ...STOP! You do NOT have a duty to shoot anyone. It is NOT your obligation to prevent murder. The same way it is not the police officers duty to prevent it. The Courts will not back you up!
First, yes, of course, carry the most potent firearm you are able to. In many circumstances in the real world that will be your littler CCW pieces - deal with it and learn how to employ them in a tactical situation. But I can think of no such situation, at least in terms of Mumbai, that will leave me engaging a terrorist with a pistol at 100 meters. That's not what it's for. It's to get you the heck out of the situation, period. If you're going to play sheep dog, have a long gun handy, because a guy with an AK is going to trump anything you can carry on your belt, and I don't want to hear a bunch of chest-thumping heroics on how somebody can knock the teats off a gnat at 200 meters with his Desert Eagle. The AK is going to win.
I am most decidedly not a sheep dog - I don't care for the flock enough, and if its members choose to be sheep then getting eaten is a known risk and their business. I'll go into combat to protect my fellow citizens only insofar as it serves to get my sorry butt and that of those close to me out of the soup. That means engaging and scooting. For that a CCW piece will work very nicely.
For a civilian, engaging a terrorist at 100 meters is an entirely different tactical scenario. That is not what the civilians in Mumbai faced. It is what the law enforcement authorities faced, and they were barely outgunned and badly outfought. If the shooters are at 100 meters grab your people and get the hell out of Dodge and let the pros do their thing. If you happen to be a pro, have a long gun, some training, and a combat mindset, because this isn't a traffic stop, it's war.
All IMHO, of course.
Wow! You are serious about this.
How much maintenance does a semi-auto take? I know you should clean it after a day at the range, but what more is required?
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Send treats to the troops...
Great because you did it!
www.AnySoldier.com
THe specifics of Alaska Law are short and to the point
AS 11.81.335. Justification: Use of Deadly Force in Defense of Self.
(a) Except as provided in (b) of this section, a person may use deadly force upon another person when and to the extent
(1) the use of nondeadly force is justified under AS 11.81.330 ; and
(2) the person reasonably believes the use of deadly force is necessary for self defense against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual assault in the first degree, sexual assault in the second degree, or robbery in any degree.
(b) A person may not use deadly force under this section if the person knows that, with complete personal safety and with complete safety as to others, the person can avoid the necessity of using deadly force by retreating, except there is no duty to retreat if the person is
(1) on premises which the person owns or leases and the person is not the initial aggressor; or
(2) a peace officer acting within the scope and authority of the officer’s employment or a person assisting a peace officer under AS 11.81.380.
I totally agree with your assessment, but let me add a little to your tacticals scenario:
The tangos, in order to launch an effective Mumbai type attack, have to
1) form up into an effective unit,
2) execute their plan,
and
3) gain their objectives before they lose initiative and element of surprise.
If they get bogged down, they are toast. They rely on surprise getting them across the reactionary gap before the authorities can form up enough well armed manpower to counter-attack them and stop them.
Anything a sheepdog can do to blunt their momentum is significant, especially if it bogs them down.
I will be at the mall tomorrow with my 16 month old daughter. Yes, I realize no sane person would visit the mall three days before Christmas.
Although I am not CCW, I think a Mumbai style attack is very unlikely in the USA for the very same reason Yamamoto thought it a bad idea to invade: a rifle behind every blade of grass.
So if we do have an attack at my mall tomorrow, I’ll be throwing myself over my baby in the hopes that my ribs can slow the bullet velocity enough to save her. Unless we are in a cowering under the table waiting to get shot situation like the kids at Columbine. In that case I die trying to break the SOB’s neck when he comes up to take his shot.
Buy a helmet Mary. Give it a rest.
“Buy a helmet Mary. Give it a rest.”
Very serious... I've been in a sustained firefight before. I didn't have to worry about running out of ammo because I carried a double combat load - as did everyone else on my team. The bad guys we were shooting at didn't, and when they started running low (and started trying to conserve), we flanked them and cut them to shreds. It is always better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
My regularly carried semi-autos get cleaned about once per week... But that is because I go to the range and teach (it's my job) on a regular basis.
Here is the deal on maintaining a semi-auto: It needs to be wiped down with either a silicone gun cloth (or a cloth - with a very light coating of a good quality gun oil - just enough to be barely visible) on a regular basis in order to protect the exterior surfaces (but not to the point of causing it to be hard to maintain a grasp! Too much oil, in not a good thing). This is not as big of an issue on weapons that are coated with an epoxy type finish or stainless as it is with a blued weapon, but all weapons should be wiped down regularly. Now, internally... There are a few bearing (metal-to-metal) surfaces that require lubrication to prevent galling of the metal. Just a drop on each surface - we're not operating a V-8 engine. Those surfaces are the rails, the locking lug at the top/front of the chamber section of the barrel, the barrel where it goes through the front of the slide/barrel bushing. Depending upon the make of the pistol, other surfaces such as the barrel link, guide rod, etc. will also require lubricating. Any pistol should come with an owners manual, and if it didn't the manual is almost always available for free from the manufacturer. (They like to avoid lawsuits, so they want you to have the manual.) In the manual is usually a diagram that will show you how to do a basic field strip of the pistol and where it should be lubricated. It has taken me longer to type these last few sentences that it takes to field strip most pistols. It is really very simple, and you can do it proficiently after only a couple of practice runs.
Now... If you operate in a very dusty environment you have to remember that oil attracts dust and grit. This will require more frequent cleaning. There is a lubricant called Mili-tec with which we have had good success in Southwest Asia. It is a "dry film" lubricant that bonds to the molecular structure of the metal in the weapon and, once the weapon is heated up through firing it, forms the dry lubricating surface. You then clean the weapon, repeat this process a couple of times, and then clean the weapon completely, adding no Mili-tec when you are done - the weapon is ready to go. Keep in mind that this is for a dry, dusty environment.
What about in a humid environment? Standard cleaning and lubricating (I use "Breakfree CLP") is all that is required. Breakfree CLP (the CLP stands for cleaner, lubricant, protectant) works well, as do all products by Tetra - though the Tetra products are a little more pricey.
If you don't fire your pistol on a regular basis, but do carry it, I would recommend a field strip and clean once a month. That is not a big task since the pistol is not really "dirty." It just maintains the pistol in a "ready to go" condition regarding being clean. If you get caught out in a big rain storm and get drenched, it is time to take the pistol down and clean it regardless of when you last did it - even if it was only two days ago. At the same time, if you were not carrying "duty" type ammunition (with sealed case mouths and primers) and your ammo got wet, you need to replace that, too. Save the old ammo that got caught in the rain and take it to the range to shoot - but ammo that has been soaked is not something on which you should bet your life. Wet ammo is pretty rare if you are carrying concealed and use an umbrella - but I mention it because failure to do so could be costly for someone that hadn't thought about it.
I've put a lot of information down here on this post, but I would rather say too much on topics like this than too little. If you go back an look at the basics though, you find that a good semi-auto doesn't require really much more maintenance than any revolver should receive. Yes, you can leave a revolver in the night stand drawer for 25 years and pull it out and it will probably shoot. But you could probably get away with the same thing on a Glock or a double-action semi-auto pistol just as easily. The thing is, no revolver or pistol should go without regular maintenance...
Never pick a revolver over a pistol because someone tells you it is easier to maintain... That is not only discriminatory (people assume that you have no mechanical ability, and do so especially when talking to women) and deprives you of a good tool that you can use to defend yourself. The ability to take the pistol apart in a "field strip" manor is achievable by anyone that wishes to learn it. I could field strip a Government Model Colt when I was in the first grade - and learned to do it on my own. I refuse to believe that anyone else can not learn to do the same thing if they really want to.
Regards,
Raven6
You've certainly given me plenty to think about. I think I'll revisit the semi-autos. Having 10 rounds or more on board is probably a good trade-off for the extra maintenance required. Until reading your post I thought much more would be involved.
Many thanks.
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Send treats to the troops...
Great because you did it!
www.AnySoldier.com
His major point is that individuals need to use major caliber weapons to respond to situation like the Mumbai attacks. The police in the Victoria Terminus Station were armed with bolt action rifles capable of taking out the terrorists at long distance. They ran for cover because they had never been trained to engage an armed opponent with superior firepower. The men and women on the platform were unarmed. Had 10 percent of the people on the platform been armed with a .32 or .38 caliber weapon, the attack could have been thwarted with less loss of life.
The people of India are generally speaking an unarmed populace. The victims at the restaurant were set to fail as they were unarmed and in that neighborhood of Mumbai people have had a false sense of security.
The Oberoi and Taj hotels had great front door security but lacked security on the doors entering the Kitchens. This was a major failure on the part of the hotels. At the same time hotel residents did not have an escape plan for them to use as the events unfolded.
No one faced a dozen riflemen as purported by Mr. Suarez. There were two sent to the Victoria Terminus Station, two were at the restaurant, two at the Oberoi and two at the Taj. The final two were at the Jewish Community Center. The two at the restaurant left there and stole an automobile and threw grenades at two location towards central Mumbai. Had a few people been armed at any of the locations things might have turned out differently.
Now let's look at the situation in the U.S. Less than one percent of the people eligible to have a concealed carry permit have one. We need to begin a campaign to increase that number to ten percent.
The model for this position is the nation of Israel. In the late sixties few men carried and terrorists could shoot people down at will. Today when you walk down a street in Jerusalem you will see men routinely carrying weapons openly. Few people are shot by terrorists now as the terrorist knows he will be shot in the process. Today bombs are the tool.
After achieving the ten percent goal, training in marksmanship and how to engage the armed opponent is necessary. I would rather see a dozen men with keltecs and Smith snubbies that one or two with a major caliber.
By the way, Mr. Suarez indicates the .45 caliber weapon has too few cartridges to be effective, I offer the Springfield XD-45 with 14 rounds as an effective tool.
The campaign to move to the 10 percent could be done by members of the Lion, Optimists, Sertoma and other service organization speaking on the value of an armed populace in these tough times.
Suarez has small hands... ;-)
I thought the same thing you did about that statement regarding the .45. I like my 13+1 Glock 21.
Regards,
Raven6
I suspect that we are already seeing some deterrence effect with even 1% of the citizens armed.
10% would be wonderful.
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