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To: Star Traveler
Ok. So God revealed, without any possible doubt, these premises. How do you know? You believe them to be true, which is fair. But so far you are asserting them to be true because you believe them to be true - circular reasoning? BTW, reasoning is on of God's greatest gifts and one way it reveals itself is through free will. I believe God wants us to use his gifts, including the gift of reason. For example, God created the universe in six days. Taken literally that's 3,648 minutes. Perhaps the "day" in Genesis is allegorical. God created man - perhaps that creation is the point in evolution when, through God's grace, we evolved from simians to humans. For many centuries revealed wisdom had it that the sun revolved around the earth. To question that was a heretical and capital offense. Why are the Gnostic gospels not scripture? Did God tell you they are not his word?

In both instances these are the judgments of fallible men. We all rely on the judgments of fallible men.

173 posted on 12/09/2008 5:26:43 PM PST by starlifter
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To: starlifter

You said — “Ok. So God revealed, without any possible doubt, these premises. How do you know?”

God verified His Word by means of fulfilled prophecy. He says that He knows the “end” from the “beginning” — which He says no one else does and can do. And, alongside of that, God also sent Jesus, as a direct witness to who God was. We have the direct witness of Jesus to this, through the people who testified to these things.

The Bible, besides being a divinely inspired writing — is also (and just as much and more so than any other) is a historical document, which can also be verified as to its accuracy.

It has its veracity documented, then, these several ways — through its accuracy as a historical document, it’s proof through prophecy (things given ahead of time and accomplished later), the direct witness of Jesus Christ Himself, affirming that this *is* the Word of God and His life being “verified” through His resurrection, and being taken up to Heaven in the sight of over 500 people, seeing this, all at one time, plus the many other eyewitness testimony. These are several proofs to the Word of God.

One particular prophetic event that has its “end proof” in our present time — is the restoration of the nation-state of Israel. Israel was destroyed as a nation-state and its people scattered into all different nations around the world (many of them still there...). Now, they were destroyed as “that nation” for almost (roughly speaking) around 2,000 years (a little bit less than that). No nation in the world that has been destroyed like that, so long ago, has ever survived and has come back as a nation-state — and no less — in the same place as it originally existed.

In fact, the Bible indicates that not only would it come back again, but it would be “in the land” (i.e., in the same place) and the Bible describes the nations that would be against it (those same nations that are against it today... LOL...) In addition to that, the Bible also describes that the Temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and on the Temple mount.

So, if you want *continuing proof* that the Bible is 100% accurate in all that it says and comments about — just see if the Temple in Jerusalem is rebuilt on the Temple Mount...

You said — “Perhaps the “day” in Genesis is allegorical.”

The grammar and syntax in the original language does not support that. In fact, according to *the language* that is given (i.e., as it is written), it can *only* be a normal day, just as it is today... That’s how the syntax and grammar indicates that it *has to be*.

Now, you, personally, may not “believe” what the Bible says about the word “day” — however — what you can’t get around is that it *does* say that about a “day”. All you can say about it — is — “I don’t believe what it says...” And that’s another matter. There is no room for a “day” being anything other than a normal day, as in the passing of one evening and one morning...

And then you said — “For many centuries revealed wisdom had it that the sun revolved around the earth.”

That may have been some clerics who said that, but it certainly wasn’t the Bible that said that. It’s the same thing you’ve got today. There are pastors running around, today, who say things that the Bible does not say, and try to get *their meaning* imposed onto the Bible. But, it’s not so... And so, likewise, it was not “revealed wisdom” — as the only “revealed word” is the Bible itself.

Finally, you said — “Why are the Gnostic gospels not scripture? Did God tell you they are not his word?”

There have been criteria by which the Jews (at first) and then the Christians (later) have been able to recognize what was God’s Word and what was not God’s Word. Some of the criteria was that it couldn’t contradict God’s Word that had already been revealed (as God gave His Word over several generations and by means of several writers and in several locations — with the only commonality being that it was from God, Himself). Another was that it had to be 100% accurate on any matters of prophecy and/or other facts and statements given (i.e., things that people could easily verify at the time). And..., there are other criteria that are given, too — but I’m not getting into a Bible study here... LOL...

The Old Testament was pretty much solidified by the time of Jesus and the New Testament was pretty much recognized by those Christians who received it by a century or less after the time of Jesus. The Apostle John’s writing in Revelation *closed* Scripture, by the words that He wrote, from Jesus. That was written by around 95 A.D. Anything that would have come after that would have been fraudulent as a result. But, as I said, there are many criteria that were used by Christians and Jews...


184 posted on 12/09/2008 5:54:38 PM PST by Star Traveler
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To: starlifter
I believe God wants us to use his gifts, including the gift of reason. For example, God created the universe in six days. Taken literally that's 3,648 minutes. Perhaps the "day" in Genesis is allegorical.

So you believe that a period described as a "day," having a morning and evening means something besides a day?

What is the limit you see to God's abilities that would prevent him from creating the Universe in the allotted time?

What would the day represent in allegory, especially considering that it can't be an allegory for an evolutionary age, because plants exist before light and birds before land animals?

What does reason tell you about this: You're the Almighty. You've recently evolved lower creatures into one bearing your image and a very useful intellect. Do you:

A. Tell these creatures a story of the Earth they can fathom without science (so old you can't fathom it, seeds of life grow into greater and greater creatures, God carefully designs and places the heart and mind of Man, etc.)

B. Tell them a fairy tale about how you created the world in six days, and include items like plants existing before there was a sun, women resulting from orthopedic surgery and a talking snake?

I'm not as smart as God, but option A looks like the clear winner to me...unless option B is actually true. What's your take?

For many centuries revealed wisdom had it that the sun revolved around the earth.

Cite for me in the Bible where it states that the Sun revolves around the Earth.

Why are the Gnostic gospels not scripture? Did God tell you they are not his word?

Did God tell you they are? If not, why is the judgment of people in the early church somehow inferior to yours?

260 posted on 12/09/2008 9:36:51 PM PST by Mr. Silverback ("[Palin] has not even lived in the Lower 48 since 1987. Come on! Really!" --Polybius)
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