The “defense” would say, “Irrelevant, Your honor!” Not that living the commandments is an “irrelevant” issue in our lives...it's just we don't disagree on the need to do that. Living the commandments just isn't a 1:1 correlation of how God's grace interacts with us! In fact, your next statement of A key component of grace is that we don't always live the commandments. was closer to what I'm talking about than what your LDS teachngs zero in on...I have several examples, but here are two 1:1 correlation LDS teachings I vehemently disagree with:
Grace is granted to men proportionately as they conform to the standards of personal righteousness... (LDS apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 339)
No, it isn't, Bruce!! Men don't force God's gracious hand!!! (Can you imagine a Mormon leader saying, “An earthly father's Christmas gifts are granted to their children proportionately as they conform to the family standards of personal righteousness”? That would be an outrageous conclusion!) Yet LDSaints don't seem to bat an eyelash over this kind of misunderstanding as to what grace is!
And then the second LDS doctrinal reference:And when we obtain ANY blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. (D&C 130:21)
Once again, instead of focusing on the inner nature of God's goodness as the motivating factors here, Mormons force God's hand of blessings by pointing to their obedience as the trigger of those blessings, NOT as God's lovingkindness or provision or mercy or grace! God is motivated more by His inner benificence more than any external motivators combined could collectively come up with!
We are all saved via the atonement & His grace....We believe all will be saved through that atonement (save the sons of perdition), however, not all will receive all that he has. Therein lies the rub.
OK, this is where your rather loose tossing around of the word “saved” confuses lurkers. They see these lines and think, “Oh, they're more biblical than I thought.” So, let me clear that up for them:
(1) When LDS talk about “all saved” -- they basically mean ALL – or close to it – minus the sons of perdition. It's a near-universalism where just about everybody will have their own kingdom.
But what did Jesus say? ...wide is the road that leads to destruction. Narrow is the way that leads to life... [I don't think “destruction” is a degree of salvation. Do you, Reno?]
(2) When LDS use “save” in this manner, they are talking about their article of faith which talks about how Christ died to save people from the effects of original sin. Imagine it's 1800 and you're on one side of the Grand Canyon and disabled due to an inherited disease and no way to get around it to the other side. The Mormon Jesus arrives where you are, takes away the effects of your inherited disease, and then announces, “I now pronounce you with free agency! (But you still need to get to the other side of the canyon minus any supernatural bridge). Of course I'll help you out. But NOT UNTIL you've done ALLYOU CAN DO.”
Even Reno says – to emphasize this above point – that Christ is the One that takes us the rest of the way through the atonement but not by us doing nothing... So, how did Reno – and how do Mormons retwist Jesus? Jesus said, I am the Way (John 14:6). Mormons say, “Jesus is the rest of the Way” (after ALL you can do). And what happens if you DON'T DO ALL you can do? Well, there's no promise of salvation there – at least not if it's not enough to “command” the attention of God's grace. Hence, why LDS constantly use the word “worthiness.”
Now, of course, men can make their way around the Grand Canyon. But Jesus never said, “I am the Way, but make your own way.” (And, now try to imagine you spanning the eternal gap of our filthy rags coming to live eternally with an all-holy perfect God who made Moses remove his profane sandals in his presence...what's worse, would be a filthy-ragged man appearing unto God claiming, “Yup, Heavenly Father. I've done all I can do. See my wonderful wardrobe? Isn't it lovely?”)
Heavenly Father would reply. “Did you not read my apostle's words? 'For all have fallen short of the glory of God.'”
Trying to bridge the gap of the canyon between our glory or His on the basis of our own righteousness is foolishness, when Jesus Himself offers to be our substitute righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30).
Why is your version & understanding of grace only the correct interpretation...
OK, maybe you're asking a question here that's meant differently than how I'm about to answer it, but what if I asked you, “Why is your version & understanding of joy only the correct interpretation?” You see, I just don't see many wildly vascillating definitions out there for joy. When people sing, “Joy to the World” @ Christmas, they are often joyous! We don't see them debate as to different interpretations of joy. Or maybe a better example would be peace. You might ask, “Why is your version & understanding of peace only the correct interpretation?” While, yes, there might be more definitions of “peace” out there than “joy,” still, I can come back to you with an answer of: “Well, Jesus said 'peace I give to you' – a 'peace not of this world' and Paul later added it was a 'peace that transcended all understanding.' So what's there to correctly or incorrectly interpret? Peace is from Jesus; not the world; it's beyond our human comprehension.”
Likewise, with grace, I can say: “Paul said grace saves; not works; if it were works, we could boast about how our own works saved us” -- a paraphrase of Ephesians 2:8-9. “Besides that, no Biblical scholars debate what “grace” means. It means “gift” (as in something rec'd for free) So my questions to you are:
“Why do you keep trying to pay for that which is given freely?
Why do you adhere to McConkie's proportionate tit-for-tat payback grace? (as if those 2 contradictory terms could even ever be used without totally distorting language).
Why do you believe in a religion that says only your obedience prompts God's blessings? -- D&C 130:21.
that of your Christian brethren that disagree wrong?
Hey, if people want to say “grace” doesn't mean “gift” -- I guess they can write their own new dictionary...be it English or Greek.
Many Christian churches believe in Grace & works which is contrary to your assertions. Who's correct & why?
Well, you've turned the order around. For the 2 Nephi 25:23 adhering Mormon, it's not grace & works, it's actually “works & maybe...well, I hope...we-certainly-are-trying-for-grace...if we can just nail that 'ALL' part.” Listen, for the Mormon, if you don't have the works down, you ain't gonna get the grace. It's that simple. Now, tell me. Which of your alleged “Many Christian churches” believe that? (I don't know of any) None of them embrace 2 Nephi 25:23 which all rests upon two key words of “ALL” and “AFTER.” (Clue: “ALL” means “ALL” and “AFTER” means “AFTER”)
So, the true Mormon formula is: Works According to Ability (ALL you can do) + a hoped-for God-govt. Bailout somewhere down the line – provided you're not on the verge of moral or spiritual bankruptcy like GM or Ford...and provided you're able to prove that every member in your company (body) did everything they could do...no time-wasting...no surfin' porn sites...no...well, you get the picture.
The Christian churches I know operate more on the following model: You're a young man. You're broke. You'd like to serve your community, but the boss you've talking to tells you that you need a car to do that. You need mobility. So you're dad gives you a car. He gives it to you. He doesn't say, “you need to be a worthy son” first...nor does he give you a gift proportionate to what you've done. Modeling himself after the father of the prodigal son, nor does He bless you only according to your level of obedience. He graces you with a free car. You are now empowered to carry out all those good acts within the community. In fact, your Father wants you to be so continually dependent upon His ongoing and freely available grace, that He gives you a credit card for gas purchases so that you fully realize that even your energy to get around is fully funded by Him. Now you don't just sit at home after he's equipped with you car & energy. You drive around and perform your good works. But who gets the glory for what's done? You? As Jesus said in one of his parables about servants, you only did what you were told to do. I mean that's what servants do. Our role isn't to glorify ourselves and make us look good as future gods. Grace empowers us to good works. Faith is the root; works are the fruit. Works are a by-product of our relationship with Heavenly Father & the Son – they are not the source of it!
You once again further show your ignorance of our beliefs by stating that “It's a near-universalism where just about everybody will have their own kingdom.” Not everyone will have their own kingdom, although everyone will be put into a kingdom dependent upon their works as described in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 where the Lord clearly talks about the Resurrection unto those three kingdoms, but they will not necessarily be their own kingdom. You were a member, & you don't know this basic principle? Maybe that's why you fell away, you never knew the basic tenants of the gospel.
As far as the grace vs. works issue is concerned, how do you explain Matt. 25:31-46?
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Now, here the Lord is talking about the judgment. He talks about the sheep on His right who have done WORKS unto their fellow men & they would “inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world”. Then, He talks about the goats & how they had not done WORKS unto their fellow man, “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”.
Both the sheep & the goats BELIEVED in the Lord, but only those that did the WORKS unto their fellow man received life eternal. Where does He say here that as long as one believes, it doesn't matter what works you do for your fellow man, His grace alone will be sufficient for life eternal & to inherit the kingdom prepared for them?
Let's now turn to Titus 1:16.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
He says “They profess that they know God”, in other words, they have faith in Him, but then He says, “but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate”. How did they DENY Him? IN WORKS!
Again, explain how grace trumps works according to the Lord IN HIS OWN WORDS in these scriptures.
Of course, these are just 2 of a myriad of scriptures I could/have cited to you that talk about the import of works in relation to the final judgment. These would seem very clear to me & many others here I presume. You obviously have a very different opinion. I would ask once again, why is your opinion the correct one & mine wrong, & how do you know definitively? Certainly you can see there are scriptures that contradict your assertions.
Our role isn't to glorify ourselves and make us look good as future gods. Grace empowers us to good works. Faith is the root; works are the fruit. Works are a by-product of our relationship with Heavenly Father & the Son – they are not the source of it!