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To: arrogantsob

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.”
-Thomas Jefferson

“Resolved, That the General Assembly of Virginia, doth unequivocally express a firm resolution to maintain and defend the Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution of this State, against every aggression either foreign or domestic ... That this Assembly doth explicitly and peremptorily declare, that it views the powers of the federal government, as resulting from the compact, to which the states are parties; as limited by the plain sense and intention of the instrument constituting the compact; as no further valid than they are authorized by the grants enumerated in that compact; and that in case of deliberate, palpable, and dangerous exercise of other powers, not granted by the said compact, the states who are parties thereto, have the right, and are in duty bound, to interpose for arresting the progress of the evil, and for maintaining within their respective limits, the authorities, rights and liberties appertaining to them.”
-James Madison

“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.”
-James Madison

“I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground that ‘all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states or to the people.’ To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power not longer susceptible of any definition.”
-Thomas Jefferson

“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions.”
-James Madison

I don’t know what to tell you.

***The Constitution was written to restrain the STATES and increase federal power. This is indisputable.***

And exactly what were the restraints on the states besides being prohibited from emitting bills of credit, not starting wars, and not conducting diplomacy on their own?

***The Tenth amendment says only that powers not delegated are retain but says nothing about the means used to implement the expressed powers.***

Oh so basically the 10th Amendment means nothing. What means do you need to go about maintaining an Army/Navy, establishing courts, making post roads, regulating commerce, coining money, etc. other than to pass a laws (which is exactly what the necessary and proper clause redundantly authorizes)?

***The Founders deliberately rejected the argument that the Constitution was confined to expressed powers. Not even Jefferson consistently claimed that though he was not a Founder per se. They accepted the fact that there was a need for implied powers to be utilized as long as they did not conflict with the reservations or spirit of the Constitution.***

Funny because I have read numerous times that whenever someone tried to bring up the idea that the federal government SHOULD have implied powers, they were struck down by the general assembly.

***Basically it is that the sovereign power of the government allows it to create instruments with which to attain the goals of expressed powers.***

The “sovereign power”? Kind of like the crap they used to legitimize the draft. Hamilton was originally in favor of a president for life who could appoint governors and senators (sounds like what we fought against).

***The National Bank was just such an instrument allowing the government to more expeditiously handle tax revenues, fund the govenment, fund National Defense and control the money supply for starters. There was no need to spell out the power to create a National Bank anymore than there was to spell out the right to control borders or create an Air Force.***

The government had the treasury to do all that there is no legitimate need to inflate the money supply unless one plans on constantly going to war. The Air Force utilizes another type of weapon. You don’t need to spell out upgrades to the military. Unlike the Air Force (and planes in general), the concept of central banking was around at the time and it was NOT included in the Constitution.

***The idea that a modern war can be funded without a national bank is ludcrious to anyone who has studied these issues.***

All that says to me is that we shouldn’t be engaged in war so often.


177 posted on 11/30/2008 10:51:04 PM PST by djsherin (The federal government:: Because someone has to f*** things up!)
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To: djsherin

There is nothing in the Constitution explicitly empowering the government to make the Louisiana Purchase. Guess Jefferson and Madison saw things differently when the opportunity arose to secure our borders by buying land and increase our safety. This was an inplicit power fully within the instrumentalities necessary to carry out explicit powers. Jefferson was not a Libertarian either.

Who is arguing that there were not powers reserved for the states or that the government should not overstep those granted it. The “few” powers granted the National government are exactly those which define a nation and allow all reasonable and unforbidden instrumentalities to accomplish those powers. There are few things not in play in a war for life and death of the nation even if not explicitly granted.

Prior to the Constitution the states were strong enough to counter the national good/need and them had done so by refusing to grant taxation power sufficient to fund the Revolutionary War. Breaking that power was the entire reason the Convention was called. Madison was very explicit about this as he was about the absolute need for greater federal power. In fact, he was ready to propose federal vetoes on state laws and the reduction of the states to administrative units within the larger structure.
After he broke with Hamilton and went over to Jefferson he tried to undo all the great good he had done when more Hamiltonian than Hamilton.

The Tenth amendment has never been the basis of any substantial law and was designed as a sop to the anti-federalists. And these facts are not my fault.

Your mistaken what was rejected was any declaration within the Constitution that there were ONLY explicit powers.

Any idea that the world’s greatest power can always or easily avoid war should not be one held by one planning to be an officer. We have fought wars when necessary not with a pollyanna attitude. Politicians know they are the kiss of death to their careers. Even those winning wars have been rejected for reelection.

Perhaps you are opposed to the United States being a Sovereign power? But it is and sovereignty requires certain things to make it so. Maybe you prefer a dependent power unable to stand on its own.

Here is a brief description of reality in 1790 when the Bank of the US was conceived. We were a new nation without a money supply. It had been drained off by the Imperial System of England for decades before the Revolution. Almost all specie had been spent purchasing war supplies from aboard. Thus the economy was in a state of collapse with the only money being Continentals which were almost worthless since they were the only mechanism for funding the war available to the Confederation. States were not in much better shape with state issued paper money of doubtful convertibility.

Hamilton’s bank changed all that in a flash issuing paper which immediately was as valued as that of England and drawing in millions in specie. It jumped started the incredible expansion of the American economy and his enemies have never forgiven him for his magnificent achievement. His bank had NO incentive to inflate the money supply since decreasing the value of money hurts those who have money. It was not designed to inflate the money supply but to provide liquidity and it did to such a great extent that his enemies had to admit they were wrong and recharter when the charter expired and the demands of the War of 1812 hit. Treasury in no way can perform the functions of a Central Bank. If it could Hamilton would have been happy to keep it that way since he controlled Treasury until Wolcott was succeded.

Madison’s ideas were as extreme as Hamilton’s if not more so at the beginning of the struggle for the Constitution but there was no man more devoted to the creation of the United States as the great Alexander. No man fought harder for its creation and protection from foreign and domestic danger as he. He saw immediately the danger of courting the mob and fought it till his dying breath at the hands of one who organized and used it.


183 posted on 11/30/2008 11:34:27 PM PST by arrogantsob (Hero vs Zero)
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