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In the Belly Of the Beast
Personal Liberty ^ | Nov 21st, 2008 | Bob Livingston

Posted on 11/29/2008 5:47:30 AM PST by IbJensen

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To: UCANSEE2
Ask Billy Graham.

I understand the people of faith can have great influence on politics. Indeed, how often do we see the faith card being played by politicians. Jesus' enemies were politicians and they viewed Jesus as a political threat. Yet, Jesus was very clear to separate himself from making any political choices.

41 posted on 11/29/2008 8:21:01 AM PST by spatso
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast
The Hebrew translation of the Commandment is: "Do not murder".

Pan-islamists must be killed en masse.

How many muslims are islamist?

42 posted on 11/29/2008 8:22:02 AM PST by onedoug
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To: UCANSEE2
It is mentioned in the Bible, one cannot serve two masters.

I have never viewed the government or a political affiliation as my master. If the point of the original article is that you cannot serve a government or a cause or a political philosophy as an end in itself, I would be okay with that. My problem stems more from the idea that Christians alone can do good.

43 posted on 11/29/2008 8:28:02 AM PST by spatso
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To: Texas_shutterbug
But the far religious right has created a very high octane mix, but as I see it, they refuse to see that not only have their religion influenced their politics, but their politics have definitely influenced their religion, as well. And this goes far beyond topics like homosexuality or abortion. In my opinion, the bible is pretty clear on matters like that. However, in matters of taxation, social programs, etc., I think the bible is not very clear at all. We do know what we are called to do personally, but we don't always know what government is called to do or not do.

Years ago studying contemporary gospel messages we had to read Liberation Theology. The language is seductive in arguing that Jesus would stand with the poor against the rich of Latin America. The theology itself is based on the Gospels. But, implicit in the theology is a political agenda that encourages the poor to try and overcome the privilege of the rich. The flaw in the theology was not the application of the Gospels but in making the Gospels political. Is it not the same if we try and establish a conservative theology merely for political leverage?

44 posted on 11/29/2008 8:41:07 AM PST by spatso
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To: MSSC6644
But the suffering is done by individuals. Christ died for the sins of individuals. We live, we give, we sin, we die as individuals.

I don't disagree one bit. We have churches that are corrupt. We have governments that are corrupt. My relationship with God is my relationship with God. No church, no agency and certainly, no government or politician speaks for me and my personal responsibility to live a Christian life. I love the Pope, but he merely renders opinion on religious matters. I alone am responsible for my faith and conduct. But, this does not preclude my gathering with others to celebrate the Lord. And, it does not stop me from cooperating with others, even liberals, to extend a helping hand to those who suffer.

45 posted on 11/29/2008 8:52:12 AM PST by spatso
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To: Wonder Warthog
Indeed. He said to "...visit the imprisoned....", but nowhere is there an admonition not to PUT them in prison if they need to be so placed.

I agree Jesus was very clear to distinguish his work from what belonged to Caesar.

46 posted on 11/29/2008 8:56:01 AM PST by spatso
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To: onedoug
How many muslims are islamist?

It being a matter of degree, I'd say ALL of them.

47 posted on 11/29/2008 9:16:19 AM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast
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To: spatso
"The flaw in the theology was not the application of the Gospels but in making the Gospels political. Is it not the same if we try and establish a conservative theology merely for political leverage?"

Absolutely, which is why I have disengaged myself from the right wing of the party. I think we lose much in our witness when we claim to know without a doubt that God would be a right wing Republican on social, moral and economic issues. And face it: without saying so in so many words, the right wing proclaims that loud and clear.

48 posted on 11/29/2008 9:20:24 AM PST by Texas_shutterbug
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To: Texas_shutterbug
“I think we lose much in our witness when we claim to know without a doubt that God would be a right wing Republican on social, moral and economic issues. And face it: without saying so in so many words, the right wing proclaims that loud and clear.”

God has been Hi-Jacked so many times....I can't even begin to count....
“Gott Mit Uns” in relief on the face of a Nazi belt buckle comes to mind.

49 posted on 11/29/2008 9:37:09 AM PST by TET1968 (SI MINOR PLUS EST ERGO NIHIL SUNT OMNIA)
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To: Texas_shutterbug
we claim to know without a doubt that God would be a right wing Republican on social, moral and economic issues.

Like you I marvel at the precision that people can apply in conjuring up their description of God. My spiritual formation was anchored by a definition that had us accept God as sacred mystery. Someone pressed the professor to explain what "sacred mystery" really means. He said it means we don't know, but we hold sacred what we do not yet fully comprehend. The same person asked the professor about people who insist they have a deep knowledge of of God's intention. I remember his answer like it was yesterday. He said, they may be deluded. More likely they are just lying to themselves and others.

50 posted on 11/29/2008 9:37:29 AM PST by spatso
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To: spatso

Lots of territory here. Pacifism and Christianity is one of the most misunderstood. On an earlier thread in re this issue “I wrote:
A wonderful thread on the Pacifism of Jesus:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1657931/posts

POST 148

Jesus did warfare against the Romans, the Temple and others who set themselves up as God. His warfare was bloody and brutal. He put himself in harms way and became martyred by the forces of evil that surrounded him.

The sacrifice of his life was not an act of pacifism. It was in-your-face conflict. He encountered evil directly with the most powerful tool available, his life. His murder could never be construed as other than murder with evil intent. This is not the action of someone trying to avoid conflict. In fact Jesus forced conflict. He sought it out and demanded that evil show its hand.

So it is with armies of liberation. They force evil into the open. The war in Iraq is in the tradition of Christ and his war against evil. We have forced the evil doers onto the field by creating an environment of liberation from their tyranny that they cannot tolerate.

Our troops bring light into the darkness of Islamofascism. If these fascists were men of peace they would lay down their arms and celebrate the liberation of their people. Their bloodthirsty rampage proves their evil and we seek them out to encounter and destroy them.

We are God’s army, bringing justice and freedom where before there was murder and mayhem. Our soldiers march under the rubric of the cross of Christ. There is no more powerful or profound tradition opposing evil.

148 posted on 06/30/2006 4:39:53 AM EDT by Amos the Prophet (Here come I, gravitas in tow.)


51 posted on 11/29/2008 10:37:07 AM PST by Louis Foxwell (He is the son of soulless slavers, not the son of soulful slaves.)
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To: Amos the Prophet
"Our soldiers march under the rubric of the cross of Christ."

And I THANK GOD that they don't actually march "under the rubric of the cross of Christ."

I think you are allowing your political beliefs to influence your religious beliefs. You don't convert people at the end of a sword. Christianity is about conversion of the heart, and is not about opposing evil through war. The Iraqis did not harm us, didn't want to harm us, and didn't have the means to harm us. Don't use Christ to justify the war! How sad.

52 posted on 11/29/2008 10:57:28 AM PST by Texas_shutterbug
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To: Amos the Prophet
We were the aggressors in this war; therefore, it could never be considered a "just war."

Crossing an ocean to bomb a nation "just in case" they harbor a few terrorists is about as unChristian an act as I can imagine. God will not be mocked by claiming this is His war. It is not.

53 posted on 11/29/2008 10:59:35 AM PST by Texas_shutterbug
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To: spatso; Texas_shutterbug
You might want to read a book, Deafeating The Totalitarian Lie.

It was written by a German who grew up during the 30s, was in the Hitler Youth, and on the eastern front during WWII. He compares what their Germany was like during those times w/what's benn going on in our country over the last 20+ years. It's chilling to say the least.

He blames the acceptance of Nazi propaganda on the lazy population for not standing for God's moral absoluties and taking a strong Christian stand against the oppressors.

He said, "If you keep God from the political process, you invite disaster -- as it happened in Germany, the Godless ran the German nation into the ground and they are at it again. America is no different."

I purchase many copies of this book for Christmas presents for friends and relatives. It's an essential read.

54 posted on 11/29/2008 11:10:25 AM PST by Rockyrich
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To: spatso; Texas_shutterbug
Sorry the link didn't work. Here it is: Defeating The Totalitarian Lie
55 posted on 11/29/2008 11:15:17 AM PST by Rockyrich
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To: Rockyrich
However, it is the RIGHT in this country that mainly supported an act of aggression against another nation. The Iraqi people were not and are not our oppressors, but some here would oppress the Iraqis in the name of Christ. When discussing the war, they have more in common with Nazi Germany than the "other" side.

Scanning the reviews over at Amazon, I thought this one review was particularly interesting:

"It is a sick twist of irony that von Campe fails to identify the real cause of the Nazi era horrors: heightened, and forced, patriotism; the myth of cultural purity; increased appetite for violence and military "revenge" overseas; a populace too afraid or unwilling to criticize the government; and, importantly, an overemphasis on ideology over practicality in solving the problems of society.

In all cases, the principal movement behind these ideals in modern-day America is the *right-wing*. It's so uncanny that part of me wonders if von Campe still carries Nazi ideals within him that he has appeared to have expunged. And by "part of me", I mean "most of me."

Thanks to a heavily-coordinated propaganda campaign, at one point, 86% of the US supported attacking Iraq because Hussein harbored WMDs, even though the existence of the weapons was disproven. More scary was the near-unanimity for support (this, in a country where we are constantly divided 50/50 over everything!); the Nazis could have only wished for the same level of support.

Secular ideals, those that have served the US well for more than a couple of centuries, are under attack by ideologues who are convinced that they speak for God and who are impervious to reason.

Fortunately, our nation seems to have regained its common sense, so this book will only appeal to an embittered minority who have proven themselves to be on the wrong side of history, time and time again." end of quote

I very much agree with that reviewer. I an a stong comitted christian, but the right scares me. Sinclair Lewis was correct: "WHEN FASCISM COMES TO AMERICA, IT WILL COME WRAPPED IN THE FLAG AND CARRYING A CROSS."

One can be a Christian and one can be a conservative, and still see the truth of that statement.

56 posted on 11/29/2008 11:30:16 AM PST by Texas_shutterbug
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To: Rockyrich

I am sorry but I think your well intentioned thoughts are misguided.


57 posted on 11/29/2008 11:38:02 AM PST by spatso
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To: Texas_shutterbug
"It is a sick twist of irony that von Campe fails to identify the real cause of the Nazi era horrors: heightened, and forced, patriotism; the myth of cultural purity; increased appetite for violence and military "revenge" overseas; a populace too afraid or unwilling to criticize the government; and, importantly, an overemphasis on ideology over practicality in solving the problems of society.

Mr. von Camp was speaking to the timidity and passiveness of society not to speak up to Nazi oppression - from judges to priets/church. He didn't realize until after the war what wrongs he had commited and sought forgiveness from others (people and countries). His personal journey dealt w/replacing hate he had w/forgiveness and the realization that God's morals need to be more intertwined w/society.

58 posted on 11/29/2008 12:00:50 PM PST by Rockyrich
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To: Rockyrich
Living in a country that intertwines patriotism and religion, it is much more difficult to speak up. Since I didn't read the book, I can't comment on Mr. von Campe's main thesis; however, if he attempted to discuss the "causes" without discussing the unquestioning tie between patriotism and religion, he failed.

It was not the "godless" that marched by the millions - it was the normal "christian" who unquestioningly obeyed his fuer in the name of patriotism, respect for authority, and the name of God.

I see a much stronger tie between the most rightwing elements of our party and Germany than I see ties between the left and Nazi Germany. Christians must be willing to step back and question ALL authority, and again, that is hard to do when we wrap ourselves in the flag and carry a cross.

59 posted on 11/29/2008 12:24:41 PM PST by Texas_shutterbug
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To: Rockyrich; spatso; Amos the Prophet
http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm Just do a search on Christianity and Nazi Germany, and you will see that it was not the godless who killed by the millions; it was the everyday, ordinary, churchgoing "christian." Proper and upstanding. A credit to their families. Clean cut. Good work ethic. And on and on.

Anyway, the website owners apparently has an ax to grind, but the pictures still speak for themselves.

60 posted on 11/29/2008 12:42:33 PM PST by Texas_shutterbug
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