Posted on 11/29/2008 5:47:30 AM PST by IbJensen
I understand the people of faith can have great influence on politics. Indeed, how often do we see the faith card being played by politicians. Jesus' enemies were politicians and they viewed Jesus as a political threat. Yet, Jesus was very clear to separate himself from making any political choices.
Pan-islamists must be killed en masse.
How many muslims are islamist?
I have never viewed the government or a political affiliation as my master. If the point of the original article is that you cannot serve a government or a cause or a political philosophy as an end in itself, I would be okay with that. My problem stems more from the idea that Christians alone can do good.
Years ago studying contemporary gospel messages we had to read Liberation Theology. The language is seductive in arguing that Jesus would stand with the poor against the rich of Latin America. The theology itself is based on the Gospels. But, implicit in the theology is a political agenda that encourages the poor to try and overcome the privilege of the rich. The flaw in the theology was not the application of the Gospels but in making the Gospels political. Is it not the same if we try and establish a conservative theology merely for political leverage?
I don't disagree one bit. We have churches that are corrupt. We have governments that are corrupt. My relationship with God is my relationship with God. No church, no agency and certainly, no government or politician speaks for me and my personal responsibility to live a Christian life. I love the Pope, but he merely renders opinion on religious matters. I alone am responsible for my faith and conduct. But, this does not preclude my gathering with others to celebrate the Lord. And, it does not stop me from cooperating with others, even liberals, to extend a helping hand to those who suffer.
I agree Jesus was very clear to distinguish his work from what belonged to Caesar.
It being a matter of degree, I'd say ALL of them.
Absolutely, which is why I have disengaged myself from the right wing of the party. I think we lose much in our witness when we claim to know without a doubt that God would be a right wing Republican on social, moral and economic issues. And face it: without saying so in so many words, the right wing proclaims that loud and clear.
God has been Hi-Jacked so many times....I can't even begin to count....
“Gott Mit Uns” in relief on the face of a Nazi belt buckle comes to mind.
Like you I marvel at the precision that people can apply in conjuring up their description of God. My spiritual formation was anchored by a definition that had us accept God as sacred mystery. Someone pressed the professor to explain what "sacred mystery" really means. He said it means we don't know, but we hold sacred what we do not yet fully comprehend. The same person asked the professor about people who insist they have a deep knowledge of of God's intention. I remember his answer like it was yesterday. He said, they may be deluded. More likely they are just lying to themselves and others.
Lots of territory here. Pacifism and Christianity is one of the most misunderstood. On an earlier thread in re this issue “I wrote:
A wonderful thread on the Pacifism of Jesus:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1657931/posts
POST 148
Jesus did warfare against the Romans, the Temple and others who set themselves up as God. His warfare was bloody and brutal. He put himself in harms way and became martyred by the forces of evil that surrounded him.
The sacrifice of his life was not an act of pacifism. It was in-your-face conflict. He encountered evil directly with the most powerful tool available, his life. His murder could never be construed as other than murder with evil intent. This is not the action of someone trying to avoid conflict. In fact Jesus forced conflict. He sought it out and demanded that evil show its hand.
So it is with armies of liberation. They force evil into the open. The war in Iraq is in the tradition of Christ and his war against evil. We have forced the evil doers onto the field by creating an environment of liberation from their tyranny that they cannot tolerate.
Our troops bring light into the darkness of Islamofascism. If these fascists were men of peace they would lay down their arms and celebrate the liberation of their people. Their bloodthirsty rampage proves their evil and we seek them out to encounter and destroy them.
We are God’s army, bringing justice and freedom where before there was murder and mayhem. Our soldiers march under the rubric of the cross of Christ. There is no more powerful or profound tradition opposing evil.
148 posted on 06/30/2006 4:39:53 AM EDT by Amos the Prophet (Here come I, gravitas in tow.)
And I THANK GOD that they don't actually march "under the rubric of the cross of Christ."
I think you are allowing your political beliefs to influence your religious beliefs. You don't convert people at the end of a sword. Christianity is about conversion of the heart, and is not about opposing evil through war. The Iraqis did not harm us, didn't want to harm us, and didn't have the means to harm us. Don't use Christ to justify the war! How sad.
Crossing an ocean to bomb a nation "just in case" they harbor a few terrorists is about as unChristian an act as I can imagine. God will not be mocked by claiming this is His war. It is not.
It was written by a German who grew up during the 30s, was in the Hitler Youth, and on the eastern front during WWII. He compares what their Germany was like during those times w/what's benn going on in our country over the last 20+ years. It's chilling to say the least.
He blames the acceptance of Nazi propaganda on the lazy population for not standing for God's moral absoluties and taking a strong Christian stand against the oppressors.
He said, "If you keep God from the political process, you invite disaster -- as it happened in Germany, the Godless ran the German nation into the ground and they are at it again. America is no different."
I purchase many copies of this book for Christmas presents for friends and relatives. It's an essential read.
Scanning the reviews over at Amazon, I thought this one review was particularly interesting:
"It is a sick twist of irony that von Campe fails to identify the real cause of the Nazi era horrors: heightened, and forced, patriotism; the myth of cultural purity; increased appetite for violence and military "revenge" overseas; a populace too afraid or unwilling to criticize the government; and, importantly, an overemphasis on ideology over practicality in solving the problems of society.
In all cases, the principal movement behind these ideals in modern-day America is the *right-wing*. It's so uncanny that part of me wonders if von Campe still carries Nazi ideals within him that he has appeared to have expunged. And by "part of me", I mean "most of me."
Thanks to a heavily-coordinated propaganda campaign, at one point, 86% of the US supported attacking Iraq because Hussein harbored WMDs, even though the existence of the weapons was disproven. More scary was the near-unanimity for support (this, in a country where we are constantly divided 50/50 over everything!); the Nazis could have only wished for the same level of support.
Secular ideals, those that have served the US well for more than a couple of centuries, are under attack by ideologues who are convinced that they speak for God and who are impervious to reason.
Fortunately, our nation seems to have regained its common sense, so this book will only appeal to an embittered minority who have proven themselves to be on the wrong side of history, time and time again." end of quote
I very much agree with that reviewer. I an a stong comitted christian, but the right scares me. Sinclair Lewis was correct: "WHEN FASCISM COMES TO AMERICA, IT WILL COME WRAPPED IN THE FLAG AND CARRYING A CROSS."
One can be a Christian and one can be a conservative, and still see the truth of that statement.
I am sorry but I think your well intentioned thoughts are misguided.
Mr. von Camp was speaking to the timidity and passiveness of society not to speak up to Nazi oppression - from judges to priets/church. He didn't realize until after the war what wrongs he had commited and sought forgiveness from others (people and countries). His personal journey dealt w/replacing hate he had w/forgiveness and the realization that God's morals need to be more intertwined w/society.
It was not the "godless" that marched by the millions - it was the normal "christian" who unquestioningly obeyed his fuer in the name of patriotism, respect for authority, and the name of God.
I see a much stronger tie between the most rightwing elements of our party and Germany than I see ties between the left and Nazi Germany. Christians must be willing to step back and question ALL authority, and again, that is hard to do when we wrap ourselves in the flag and carry a cross.
Anyway, the website owners apparently has an ax to grind, but the pictures still speak for themselves.
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