Posted on 11/27/2008 11:37:48 PM PST by bruinbirdman
Israel defence officials have criticised the way Indian security forces have handled the terror attacks in Bombay, after it appeared that India turned down their offer of help to defeat the militants.
The officials, from Israel's security forces, told The Jerusalem Post that the Indian troops prematurely stormed the besieged hotels where militants were holding hostages, risking lives in the process.
Indian counter-terrorist forces were well trained but failed to gather sufficient intelligence before engaging the terrorists, they said.
"In hostage situations, the first thing the forces are supposed to do is assemble at the scene and begin collecting intelligence," said a former official in Shin Bet, the Israel Security Agency
"In this case, it appears that the forces showed up at the scene and immediately began exchanging fire with the terrorists instead of first taking control of the area," he said.
Ehud Barak, the Defence Minister, has expressed his concerns about the safety of Israelis caught up in the attack, such as those held hostage in the Jewish Centre stormed in the early hours of this morning.
Seventeen commandos abseiled onto the roof of Nariman House, while snipers peppered the building with covering fire. The two year old son of Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, the main representative at the Jewish Centre, was rescued along with some other hostages but this morning gunshots and explosions still echoed around the building.
The security experts' criticism came as it emerged that Mr Barak had offered Mayankote Kelath Narayanan, India's National Security adviser, any assistance possible, either humanitarian or professional.
"Barak offered Israel's help in an advisory capacity and in any other way it could be of assistance, be it humanitarian or professional," it reported.
The two countries have close defence ties. India has bought more than $5 billion worth of Israeli equipment
(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...
Freaky, Is this a joke? This couldn’t wait a few days, or even weeks, months?
“In hostage situations, the first thing the forces are supposed to do is assemble at the scene and begin collecting intelligence,” said a former official in Shin Bet, the Israel Security Agency
That didn’t work very well at Columbine, and if the terrorists are on a suicide run it could easily make things worse.
Reports suggest as many as 280 terrorists involved, and 125 civilians dead. Given the situation, surprise, ten separate targets, and a well coordinated attack I would say that it looks like the Indians did reasonably well.
LOL, these terrorists are not the Palestinian negotiation kind. They’ve come with a plan... to kill, till they die.
The thing is that in this case there was tremendous pressure to bring the thing to a close, because it was so disruptive. Also, I think there was an anger factor here. They just couldn’t bear the charade of “negotiations” in the face of this outrage. Finally, there is the question of novelty and uncertainty. These guys didn’t just take hostages, they commited an atrocious slaughter on the way in. So then, they killed 100 and you put everything on hold because they’re holding 10 or 15, in hopes maybe they won’t kill them too?
I’m with India on this one.
It could well be that Indian forces had no luxury of having a relaxed discussion, with tea and bisquits, when terrorists started executing hostages (and that's what was previously posted here, in other reports.)
The lack of time also could explain why Israeli help was not accepted - Israel is quite far from India, and by the time everyone is there and ready there would be no one left to rescue.
Time to prepare is probably possible only when a terrorist (or a common criminal) can be talked to do nothing and hurt no one. In this case, the terrorists came with the plan already worked out, and the security on the ground could only react to that plan. I don't think any of the terrorists intended to survive themselves or to let any hostages live - all ROP terrorism in recent years confirms that.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
This is why I would never criticize an anti-terrorist operation, primarily because while it is easy to monday morning QB, the actual situation is normally far more complex with a lot of variables just twitching to go south! What may work in one situation, or even be established protocol, could easily fail. This is particularly when you are facing Islamic terrorists, who were on a suicide mission from the first moment they started their attack. They were not expecting to get out of that alive, and had already made their peace with Allah. They are not going to be acting in the way that you and I would act were we to take people hostage ...we would be logical, probably thinking of leveraging that position for some financial gain. These people are simply out to do as much havok as they can, and then die in 'glory' and receive their 'reward' in paradise. Totally illogical sots.
Thus, you are very correct when you said that based on the circumstances the Indians did a great job. Could the Israelis have done better? Well, yes. However, anti-terrorist/hostage scenarios are always very complicated, and it is easy for pie (bloodsoaked) to be applied to faces just as easily as it is for everyone involved to be a hero.
This reminds me of the Russian operation in that Moscow theater, where they used a binary nerve agent in gaseous form to knock everyone in the theater out, and then they stormed in and killed the incapacitated terrorists. That thing was soundly condemned by many when some of the hostages (a good number) died due to the effects of the agent, although anti-terrorism experts (American) mentioned that there was really no other option (since the terrorists had their fingers on detonation triggers and would have blown the entire shebang up if a 'normal' operation was attempted) ....and more importantly, many more people walked out alive than died.
It is always easy for people to judge, but if those terrorists were to do the same thing in New York or DC, the exact same situation, then it would be realized that it is not as simple as it looks. They have the advantage ....particularly when they are on a matyrdom mission and have reconciled themselves with that fact. The only way to stop such a person is to kill them as soon as possible. Giving them time (or trying to negotiate) simply gives them the time they need to either kill more people, or to fortify their locus even more (and based on the Muslim Chechen experiences in Russian terrorism, their idea of 'fortification' is explosives ...in the Russian cases even a landmine ...rather than barricading doors).
Maybe the Indians botched some parts of the plan ...maybe they should have collected more intelligence ...and I cannot say I know even HALF of 1% of what the Israeli counter-terrorist people know. However, I do know that Islamic terrorists are almost always on a death-mission ....they do not start something expecting to be sipping pina coladas on some Mexican beach once the whole thingimajig is over and done with. What they expect is to be eating dates in paradise, with 72 wives and 300 servants. I also know you cannot negotiate with them ....and sometimes it is better to risk many dead and injured and simply bum-rush them, rather than give them time collecting and collating intelligence and in the process end with all dead.
Back to the Russian indicident ...maybe the spetsnaz groups could have gotten the mix of the binary agent right. Maybe they could have come up with another plan after a day or so. Maybe they could have offered to meet every request the terrorists had.
Maybe everyone would have ended up dead.
Fact is, most walked out alive.
I agree 100% with what you said.
We in the west have a tendency to criticize others in situations we have never faced, or when we did face them, didn’t do all that spectacularly well. The Iran hostage mission, Munich, the 60’s and 70’s hijacking and detonation of aircraft, Columbine, and others.
The PLO are the ‘nice’ terrorist of the bunch and tend not to go for the suicide missions. Hamas and others are starting to displace them and it is tough to deal with them. Israel despite their experience hasn’t been able to stop them and as pointed out, settlers have acted decisively and saved many lives on several occasions.
Could the Israelis have done better? Well, yes.
Not sure they could have if the operation was already under way.
That’s my opinion as well. We have gotten used to dealing with hostage taking terrorists and the new suicide terrorists tend not to take hostages. Some still do, but they are willing to die and we should oblige them.
Absolutely. Everything Israel says may be true, but now, while the crisis is still existant, is most definitely not the time to be saying it.
I hope that this turns out to be some cra* report that, isn’t even true, the kind of our own media reporting that causes us to get all excited and then two weeks later we find out it never even happened.
Isarel without a doubt has more experience than most countries in this kind of thing. But the Indian Moslems (some were killed too) are a very shaky thing in India and it would be a bad thing to tick them off with Isarel being involved. Isarel desperately needs India with Iran right there. It is a no win sitution, people are going to die. People who are doing their God’s work and are on a suicide mission don’t care if they die.
“Reports suggest as many as 280 terrorists involved, and 125 civilians dead.”
Only one terrorist should be taken alive, and he should be shot in front of the nearest television camera.
Where did you see that number of terrorists?
Ace of Spades had that. Not sure of the source they got it from.
You’re absolutely right. They do not care if they die. They think there will be 72 virgins to molest after they have done the deed.
Which is precisely the reason I would wage a Psy-Ops campaign on them so horrible it would keep them awake at night. This, of course, would not make them like us or see things our way, but, it would end these violent, suicidal attacks to a large degree. You get between them and their 72 virgins and they will begin to see things in a different light. This will not ever be done until the cultural equivocation and PC sentiment is checked at the door.
Thanks.
It just seemed way higher than other numbers floating around.
“...and it is easy for pie (bloodsoaked) to be applied...”
I thought you were bringing Obama into this for a second.
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