Agree. But lobbying is a necessary evil in our system of government, isn't it? What happens to stands that have no lobbyist support?
2. Christians and particularly Christian leaders ARE CALLED to state forthrightly THE TRUTHS OF THE GOSPEL . . . GOD'S STANDARDS AND GOD'S PRIORITIES--TO FORCEFULLY [AND LOVINGLY] DELCARE THEM. Sometimes LOVINGLY = STERNLY--WITH CONSEQUENCES.
True, that was never the issue - the issue is whether they do it to 'be correct, who cares about their salvation' or to 'save souls'. I think we can say the later is the motive of people like Paul.
4. What RC Bishop has publicly on CNN consigned what politician to satan for the destruction of the politician's flesh that his soul might be saved? What are they waiting for--150 or 500 million murdered infants? Is THAT the trip-line for decisive courageous Christian declarations from the bureaucratic hierarchy? Or maybe the RC edifice is waiting for the beautiful cathedrals to be buried in baby skulls in garbage bags before their Bishops scrounge some cajones? <.i>
No one is arguing that the bishops in America have been doing their best job on this subject. We can look to other countries and see bishops take their jobs more seriously. However, we have a different culture now. You just cannot ORDER people to do "x", after years and years of disobedience from the BISHOPS THEMSELVES here in the US! Perhaps if the bishops here would not have been largely in dissent on a number of matters in regards to Rome, is it surprising that the bishops here are not taken very seriously? This is the culture we live in now - "I'll do what I want". Largely a Protestant culture pervades our society. Obedience to self. At any rate, it is going to take a lot of time, prayers and effort to change this culture here - if it is possible. I am not sure that mass expulsions of numerous nominal Catholics is the answer, nor do I see a precedent for that in Scriptures.
5. What's the criteria for stern spiritual declarative action?
I think Matthew 18:15-17 is the general idea. Keeping in mind that Christian leaders are not to "lord it" over those they lead. It is a difficult situation and am glad it is not upon me.
6. Playing WIMPY VERBAL FOOTSIE with demonized globalist traitorous legislators is not my idea of PREACHING, MODELING, DECLARING THE GOSPEL to any significant degree. What RESULT do you REALLY, TRULY, ACTUALLY EXPECT from such verbal mutual masturbation exchanges?
I don't think I have much more to add to this rant. But I think it calls for a more measurable response, given the reality of the culture the bishops now face (part of which THEY have reaped...).
Have trust in the Holy Spirit, Quix. We must do the best we personally can do to spread the Gospel, including the teachings on life, to those who contemplate such issues or are swayed by the liberal media.
Regards Regards
jo kus
to Quix QX: 1. I don't believe Believers LEADERS particularly are routinely called, per se, primarily to be political lackys in a flesh driven system of buying and selling influence . . . . lobbying
Agree. But lobbying is a necessary evil in our system of government, isn't it? What happens to stands that have no lobbyist support?
QX: A reasonable point. However, a huge part of me suspects that IF CHRISTIAN LEADERS AND PARISHIONERS OF ALL TYPES WOULD FOCUS ON WALKING THE TALK AND SEEKING GOD'S FACE AND CALLING ON HIM [AND doing their Christian-citizen duty of writing and calling their legislators] in such matters, the lobbyists would be running around playing futile catch-up to God's moving in the situations on a list of issues.
I don't think Moses or Paul were much into lobbying other leaders. Paul was persuasive with leaders about the truths of The Gospel. However, mostly, he let the POWER AND DEMONSTRATION OF GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT do the lobbying.
QX: 2. Christians and particularly Christian leaders ARE CALLED to state forthrightly THE TRUTHS OF THE GOSPEL . . . GOD'S STANDARDS AND GOD'S PRIORITIES--TO FORCEFULLY [AND LOVINGLY] DELCARE THEM. Sometimes LOVINGLY = STERNLY--WITH CONSEQUENCES.
JOK: True, that was never the issue - the issue is whether they do it to 'be correct, who cares about their salvation' or to 'save souls'. I think we can say the later is the motive of people like Paul.
TRUE. TRUE.
QX: 4. What RC Bishop has publicly on CNN consigned what politician to satan for the destruction of the politician's flesh that his soul might be saved? What are they waiting for--150 or 500 million murdered infants? Is THAT the trip-line for decisive courageous Christian declarations from the bureaucratic hierarchy? Or maybe the RC edifice is waiting for the beautiful cathedrals to be buried in baby skulls in garbage bags before their Bishops scrounge some cajones? <.i>
JOK: No one is arguing that the bishops in America have been doing their best job on this subject. We can look to other countries and see bishops take their jobs more seriously. However, we have a different culture now. You just cannot ORDER people to do "x", after years and years of disobedience from the BISHOPS THEMSELVES here in the US! Perhaps if the bishops here would not have been largely in dissent on a number of matters in regards to Rome, is it surprising that the bishops here are not taken very seriously? This is the culture we live in now - "I'll do what I want". Largely a Protestant culture pervades our society. Obedience to self. At any rate, it is going to take a lot of time, prayers and effort to change this culture here - if it is possible. I am not sure that mass expulsions of numerous nominal Catholics is the answer, nor do I see a precedent for that in Scriptures.
QX: I do NOT think this culture is necessarily more of a watered down apostate Proddy culture than it is an apostate RC culture. Leaders of both camps have abdicated, rebelled, misrepresented Christ and utterly failed generally.
QX: Sooooooo some of the Bishops evidently need excommunicated, too. The time for fantasies about changing the culture are past. GOD ALONE WILL CHANGE THIS CULTURE. And He WILL DO IT BY FLUSHING OUT OF EXISTENCE IN THIS TIME/SPACE DIMENSION ALL EVIL DOERS. That much IS CLEAR about the end times, Armageddon etc. We can either get WITH HIS PROGRAM or briefly enjoy the swirling water . . . er fire.
Oh, I see some precedents in Scripture! The earth swallowed up some rebels in Moses' time. There are other Scriptural examples. And WE SHALL SEE MORE AND MORE DRAMATIC SUCH IN OUR ERA. I kid you not. I actually expect God to take out most of the congress critters . . . uhhhhh . . . emphatically from public life . . . via one means or another. I just don't know the timing nor the results. Perhaps they will all have chronic incapacitating diarrhea fromt he OTHER end, for a change! LOL.
I do believe that such actions and such a stance by a number of Bishops--even one--would galvanize the RC parishioners and force many of them to choose more consciously and more thoughtfully between God and satan. THAT WOULD BE TO THE GOOD.
5. What's the criteria for stern spiritual declarative action?
JoK: I think Matthew 18:15-17 is the general idea. Keeping in mind that Christian leaders are not to "lord it" over those they lead. It is a difficult situation and am glad it is not upon me.
QX: 6. Playing WIMPY VERBAL FOOTSIE with demonized globalist traitorous legislators is not my idea of PREACHING, MODELING, DECLARING THE GOSPEL to any significant degree. What RESULT do you REALLY, TRULY, ACTUALLY EXPECT from such verbal mutual masturbation exchanges?
JoK: I don't think I have much more to add to this rant. But I think it calls for a more measurable response, given the reality of the culture the bishops now face (part of which THEY have reaped...).
QX: What sort of more measured responses would you suggest? I understand the merit in such. However, I think the time for that has largely passed. They have had measured creeping compromise upon compromise as a result of the best Marxist globalist manipulations for decades. The result has been this horrid UNBiblical mess. NO MORE SUCH!
JoK: Have trust in the Holy Spirit, Quix. We must do the best we personally can do to spread the Gospel, including the teachings on life, to those who contemplate such issues or are swayed by the liberal media.
QX: Certainly so. Certainly so. The best I can . . . for me . . . include calling errant, UNBiblical spiritual leaders to Scripture, To God, to task. I have little to no power to influence them but I must declare as I am pressed in my spirit to declare. God will do what He will with such in terms of administering HIS consequences. However, I've seen sufficient such to know that I CANNOT abdicate the place and role HE has put me in vis a vis such declarations.
I GREATLY appreciate your thoughtful response. thanks tons. BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
Wonderful, thoughtful and Christian responses. Thanks.