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To: betty boop; TXnMA
Thank you oh so very much for your outstanding and informative essay-post, dearest sister in Christ! And of course, you are never "smart-alecky" with anyone!

And thank you, dear brother in Christ, for all of your encouragements!

I very strongly agree with your assessment of jury nullification. The jury has the power to nullify law - though often the jurors do not realize it. It must be quite an affront to the courts, i.e. I suspect that simply mentioning the phrase "jury nullification" during selection is enough to be sent home. LOL!

And there's the Second Amendment - the right to keep and bear arms as an individual right. As long as that right is upheld, a "Hitler" cannot prevail here. Some have called it the "reset button" to the Constitution. I believe there are many who fear that element, but I also believe those fears are unwarranted - our society does not have large enough areas of isolation to support another civil war. If the Constitution ever needs to be reset, it'll be because a "Hitler" type came to power.

Heraclitus had yet another great insight, one which by analogy bears on our present problem. He said there are only two types of men: (1) the public man; and (2) the private man.

And so if anyone is wondering what the Logos is, just try a little thought experiment: Consider Heraclitus' public man — the man of virtue who lives beyond himself for the benefit of the wider community of men — and his private man, the man who is given over to his own dreamlike personal wishes, hopes, and desires as abstracted from the well-being of anything beyond his own personal preferences and narrow idea of personal welfare, which is finally and fatally abstracted from the requirements of the universal human condition.

Then maybe you'll see what the sheer lack of moral consensus — of the shared sense of a common Logos — is perpetrating in American sociopolitical life nowadays. If this trend is not resisted, it will issue in the doom of the novus ordo seclorum, and of its LONE sponsor: the United States of America.

Beautiful insights to Heraclitus! Thank you!

Many people have become disturbingly self-serving, i.e. the "me" generation "looking out for #1," "I'm ok, you're ok," "if it feels good, do it," etc.

Scriptures speak of this trend:

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. - 2 Timothy 3:1-5

Perilous times indeed...

Maranatha, Jesus!!!

349 posted on 09/20/2008 12:14:38 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[ For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. - 2 Timothy 3:1-5 ]

Attributes to be careful of in ourselves and our friends and family..
Can any good come from purveyors of these qualia..

350 posted on 09/20/2008 12:43:05 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: Alamo-Girl; TXnMA; hosepipe; YHAOS; metmom; joanie-f
The jury has the power to nullify law - though often the jurors do not realize it. It must be quite an affront to the courts, i.e., I suspect that simply mentioning the phrase "jury nullification" during selection is enough to be sent home. LOL!

First of all, dearest sister in Christ, thank you from my heart for the passages from 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Nothing could be more apt to what we're discussing here....

WRT the above italics: Oh, you are so right that the very idea of jury nullification gives judges the "heebie-jeebies!" LOLOL! I infer this from my experience as a prospective juror in federal district court (a Massachusetts district).

I got called to service, and accordingly showed up at the appointed time (7:30 a.m.). I was put into a room called the "jury pool." There were a whole bunch of us milling around, but eventually we all settled down at tables and chairs and opened our books, etc., to while away the time.

Two things happened next. First, we were shown a film designed to guide us into a proper understanding of our responsibilities as jurors. The basic theme boiled down to: You are bound to render your verdict solely on the basis of the guidance and instructions of the trial judge. Especially, you must rely on his interpretation of the law; and if he says that the law applies to the defendant, then you must cast your verdict in such a way as to apply the law as the judge instructs you to do.

Well, I was just flabbergasted! For I know (being a lifelong student of the Constitution) that the central tenet of the jury system is that jurors are sovereign; that is, wholly free to interpret law according to their own best lights, as an act of conscience. And then to determine whether or not the law should apply to a particular defendant in a particular case. Juries can hold the law of "no effect" WRT that particular defendant. That doesn't mean that the law changes instantly. It just means that the jury refuses to apply it in the case at hand. This is the juror's RIGHT — of free conscience. And as mentioned before, that right, and that verdict, cannot be questioned, or overturned, by ANYONE.

Natch I would never spill the fact that I understand what jury nullification is if I ever wanted to be empanelled as a juror.... But if I wanted to ditch jury duty, the most expeditious way to do that would be to suggest that my understanding of the role of the juror is the "classical, constitutional one." Today, anyone saying such a thing would get dismissed for sure, I guarantee it. :^)

But then stay tuned for part (2): The presiding judge of the court that our jury pool presumably would be serving that day came out to address us.

He said in effect: "Not to worry people, you'll be out of here early today because we are going with a plea-bargaining strategy for today's docket, so you'll probably not be called as jurors. The whole point of your being here today is as leverage over defendants to plea bargain their cases. If they don't do that, then we threaten them with a jury. Oftentimes, that's all we need to do to get them to settle. Hey, it saves on court time and expense."

At this point, I was sickened, totally disgusted.... Every American is entitled to a full and fair jury trial. And this court has twisted, reduced this right to nothing more than an expeditious route for obtaining a guilty plea....

Anyhoot, sure enuf the judge was right; and the entire jury pool was dismissed at 12:30 p.m. Evidently this judge's court got all their plea-bargaining business done that day....

Sigh....

I agree with you here: "If the Constitution ever needs to be reset, it'll be because a "Hitler" type came to power." Maybe this is the role that the Obamessiah has been chosen to fill in the upcoming festivities....

It's a very good thing I can't foretell the future. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night! LOL!!!

Meanwhile, let us pray for God's blessings on America, for a spiritual awakening, a moral regeneration....

All glory be to God, my dearest sister in Him!

352 posted on 09/20/2008 2:17:51 PM PDT by betty boop
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