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Now wait a second -- you're moving from science to history!

Seriously, if someone said to you "There are thousands of well educated PhD Bible Scholars who have studied the Bible for years who are definitely "experts" and all say that it's true -- all you have to do is believe it " -- would you say that was scientific? Nope. And how is having to believe in ASBE/AFN any different?

Because the people studying evolution (I'm not accepting your attempt to yoke it to "AFN," by the way) can tell me what independently verifiable and verified evidence they base their conclusion on. Let me know when the Bible scholars can do that.

Just why do you think this idea -- of widespread less-then-full-honesty-among-scientists is so unlikely?

At least two reasons: first, no one has ever made a deathbed confession or had an attack of conscience and confessed to being part of this vast conspiracy. No one has described how the High Priests of the Temple of Darwin came to them in the middle of the night and made them swear their oath of fealty. Conspiracies don't generally keep their secrets for 150 years. Second, because of a different aspect of human nature: the desire for recognition. You realize that the scientist who comes up with the replacement for the theory of evolution will be as famous as Darwin, right? You don't think that would ever outweigh their desire to keep the secret?

- if you're trying to say my assumptions about your theological beliefs are wrong then for pitty's sake say so!

Why? They're irrelevant to what we're discussing, and none of your business. You're the one who made the claim that evolutionists are atheists devoted to a belief that everything happened by itself. It's not up to me to prove you wrong.

The WP entry is pretty clear that the moths are an example of how natural selection works, not an example of speciation. "Such changes" refers to changes in color, which can lead to speciation. But as that entry says,

This might lead to the erroneous belief that speciation was involved in the observed evolution of the peppered moth. This is not the case; individuals of each morph interbreed and produce fertile offspring with individuals of all other morphs; hence there is only one peppered moth species.
By contrast, different subspecies of the same species can theoretically interbreed with one another and will produce fully fertile and healthy offspring but in practice do not, as they live in different regions or reproduce in different seasons. Full-fledged species are either unable to produce fertile and healthy offspring, or do not recognize each other's courtship signals, or both.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is an agenda to push a worldview.

That is your prejudice and your assumption. Don't cite the three obvious examples of people who do have an agenda to push a worldview--you're claiming this to be true of thousands of people, in different countries, speaking different languages, following different religions. The only evidence for this vast conspiracy is in your own head.

This is getting silly. My point, as I've made clear, is that you accept the testimony of people you haven't met about things you haven't seen in lots of fields, from astronomy to history to medicine. And then you pretend that evolution is somehow unique in asking you to do that.

I do not accept as scientific fact the testimony of people. That's called faith. Testimony of people is nice when it shows me how to go do the experiment myself so it can then rise to the level of science for me.

But my point is that for the average person, ASBE and AFN will never amount to anything more then a faith or a belief! And that's still religion -- regardless of whether they are correct or not in their faith and belief.

Because the people studying evolution can tell me what independently verifiable and verified evidence they base their conclusion on. Let me know when the Bible scholars can do that.

Tell me a little about the people studying evolution and what they've told you, and how you came to trust them with such great depth that you feel that your belief in ASBE is really the fact of ASBE?

(I'm not accepting your attempt to yoke it to "AFN," by the way)

Are you saying that you don't believe that all came from nothing? Well I can find you lots of experts who say that such is the case.

At least two reasons: first, no one has ever made a deathbed confession or had an attack of conscience and confessed to being part of this vast conspiracy.

yeah, just like no bank robber has ever had a deathbed confession and confessed to being part of a thousand man conspiracy to rob banks. They are all doing the same thing individually because that's what they all want to do.

No one has described how the High Priests of the Temple of Darwin came to them in the middle of the night and made them swear their oath of fealty. Conspiracies don't generally keep their secrets for 150 years.

Actually, I haven't yet seen Expelled, the movie. But from what I can tell, professors are pressured to not question ASBE, and some may have even been fired for it. And the ridicule I've seen aimed at those who question ASBE even here on FR and all over the net suggests to me that my suspicions aren't that far off. By the way, have you seen Expelled the Movie?

Second, because of a different aspect of human nature: the desire for recognition. You realize that the scientist who comes up with the replacement for the theory of evolution will be as famous as Darwin, right? You don't think that would ever outweigh their desire to keep the secret?

Famous like Darwin? well but what if instead they became famous like Behe or Flew or any other scientist who has questioned ASBE or AFN? Remember, being correct is not always popular -- and fame is directly related to popularity. I don't know if you knew any of that. The WP entry is pretty clear that the moths are an example of how natural selection works, not an example of speciation. "Such changes" refers to changes in color, which can lead to speciation.

Don't you mean "changes in ratio of color in the population?" Did not both colors exist before? I don't care how many times you change from mostly white to mostly black and back to mostly white -- do it until the cows come home - I don't care - but it's just a change in ratio between two already existing colors -- and that is not going to lead to new species!

That is your prejudice and your assumption. Don't cite the three obvious examples of people who do have an agenda to push a worldview--you're claiming this to be true of thousands of people, in different countries, speaking different languages, following different religions. The only evidence for this vast conspiracy is in your own head.

You keep twisting what I say. There does not have to be a vast conspiracy in order for lots of people to all do the same thing for the same reason. And why can't I cite the obvious examples around me of people who do have an agenda to push a worldview? What makes scientists somehow immune to that which is common to mankind? I look around me and see that a high percentage of people lie, cheat, do their own thing at the expense of others, and so on and so forth. Scientists are people too, you know! Why should I have some faith in their integrity beyond that which is common to mankind?

You never did answer my question about the experts who study ASBE -- what makes an expert? are you an expert? Do you know an expert? what makes you or them an expert?

-Jesse